Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm getting ready for a five-week documentary project which is basically a road movie, and will feature long stints in an SUV. I'm planning on rigging it semi-permanently with a 552 wired to two (or three) planted mics. I'll use a separate bag for the walk-and-talk portions of the shoot, with wireless mics and a boom. The driver and the passenger –the two subjects of the film– will be mic'd in the car as well, but I'd rather rely on the planted mics for the driving segments. I have a couple of concerns, which I hope you guys might help me address: First: the plan is to start recording on the mixer in the "hero" car (which is rigged with GoPros and, occasionally, A camera in the back seat) when we start driving, and letting it record non stop. A Comtek will send a feed to the follow car, which I'll be riding in, and I'll listen in along with Producer. So, the main question is, how will I know if the recorder stopped recording, or if there was any problem with the recording itself? Second: I'm thinking of planting two Trams on the sunshade in front of each subject in the car, and possibly a CUB somewhere in between them. A fellow mixer suggested having two CUBs, one aimed at each subject. I also read, in another thread here, that Simon Hayes used two short shotguns near the footwells to good effect. I don't want to make our stars self-conscious, so am not a big fan of that idea - but I welcome any comments or suggestions you may have as far as mic selection and placement in the car. Third: A camera wil always have a shotgun mic mounted onboard, as well as a camera hop feeding whatever I'm recording. The idea is to avoid slates while, at the same time, having decent reference sound for dailies. We still don't know what camera (probably an ENG-type Panasonic) we'll be using, but there's a good chance it'll have four-channel capability - I'm planning on feeding the onboard shotgun to two channels, with different gain levels, so as to avoid extremes and guaranteeing useable audio. My question is, should I be concerned because the onboard channel goes straight to camera, and isn't being recorded by me? Well, that's what I'm working on. I appreciate you all taking the time to read this long post, and I welcome any thoughts or insights you're willing to share with me. Cheers, BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I might've gone for a 744t or the likes in the car because I know it will roll for a long time, not sure about the 552. One thing I do like about the zoom and the tascam stuff is that it only outputs audio when you're recording. That helps in situations like this. You could do a rec run thing and output the timecode from the 744t, so you can see in your main recorder that you're receiving timecode when the machine in the car is rolling. Just an idea on the bus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 IMHO you need to have the recorder in the follow car. The easiest/safest way I came up with is a dual zaxcom transmitter. You need to use a coax antenna to remote it up next to the rear Window or behind the driver seat. In your case the rear Windows will be a better option since you might have camera operator on the rear seat. The best thing about this setup is that in the follow car you can see R on the qrx 100 indicating recording. Even if the hero car starts moving away from you and you start getting drop outs you can just pull the transmitter recording later. I have been using this workflow for an year an it is working great for me. Lately I have been using trx 742 with the stereo cone connected to 2 mkh 8040 on goose necks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Forgot to mention: In the follow car you need sharkfins connected to the receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Hoppe Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 2 lavs or Peter Engh omnigoose mics in the visor should be good for dialog. I drop the bag in the back if the car and listen in the follow car. For follow car stuff I've done I use a smv at 250 mw on the roof to a 411 velcroed to the windshield and plugged into the aux jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I see no down side to your plans other than the comtek which could be a weak link. You might be better served with an ifb or radio mic. Remember that Freq.'s change as you drive down the road so this should be addressed before you take off on your journey. I see no problem with the 552 recording a long time but I'm not a user of one, just guessing on my use of the 744t. Just get a large battery for it. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Thanks everybody - wow, it hasn't been even ten hours, and I already have very useful feedback! Crew, which IFB would you recommend? Also, please forgive my ignorance - for "radio mic" you're referring to another Lectro, yes? If that's the case, I'll have two Lectro 411s and three Sony UWP systems. The Lectros will be used on talent, and the Sonys are for camera hops and as spares - they only put out 10mW and from previous experience don't work very well in a car-to-car situation. TIA, BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 If budget is no concern, Rado's workflow results certainly speak for themselves (no pun intended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 That's the rub, Steven - the budget is, in fact, limited. I wish I could go out and buy/rent more gear, but it's out of the question. Also, I must be mindful of the amount of crap I'll be trundling along, as we'll be flying all around the country… BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I might've gone for a 744t or the likes in the car because I know it will roll for a long time, not sure about the 552. One thing I do like about the zoom and the tascam stuff is that it only outputs audio when you're recording. That helps in situations like this. You could do a rec run thing and output the timecode from the 744t, so you can see in your main recorder that you're receiving timecode when the machine in the car is rolling. Just an idea on the bus... Thanks, Olle, I'll look into the Tascam idea. BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I like my lectro ifb. it has good range. A comtek may work but it has a lesser quality sound. Good luck. Have fun. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Forgot to mention: In the follow car you need sharkfins connected to the receiver. Thanks, Rado. Great comments. Unfortunately, I have SD gear and don't have the budget to switch to Zax for this shoot. BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Thumbs down for lectro R1a's as receivers for car to car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 It all sounds fine. My wrinkle to your plan is that I often double record--ie send the plants to a splitter, with one side to an onboard recorder rolling long takes and the other side to transmitters jumping to my rig in the follow car--that way I have double record backup and hifi (and soloable) monitor audio. You don't necessarily need to bother with extra antennas--I've done fine even in the city by getting the transmitters up so they can "see" through a window of the picture car and sitting in the passenger seat of the follow car, with just the normal whip antennas all around. My other rigs, using shark fins, antenna combiners and distro etc were perhaps a little better, but at the cost of some complexity and loss of flexibility. I myself didn't like the sound of shotgun mics rigged in the footwells of cars--too much cavity resonance for me and I had to keep moving them to avoid them being in shots. The Cub/BLM/Sonotrim-in-PZM mount thing works and sounds a lot better to me--faster to rig and change etc.. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Thumbs down for lectro R1a's as receivers for car to car. Why? It's not for recording, only monitoring. What am I missing. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 " So, the main question is, how will I know if the recorder stopped recording, or if there was any problem with the recording itself? " when you check the playback... " I welcome any comments or suggestions you may have as far as mic selection and placement in the car. " as discussed in several many other threads, there are lots of acceptable options.. " and guaranteeing useable audio " that guarantee does not exist " should I be concerned because the onboard channel goes straight to camera, and isn't being recorded by me? " only if you want to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 It all sounds fine. My wrinkle to your plan is that I often double record--ie send the plants to a splitter, with one side to an onboard recorder rolling long takes and the other side to transmitters jumping to my rig in the follow car--that way I have double record backup and hifi (and soloable) monitor audio. You don't necessarily need to bother with extra antennas--I've done fine even in the city by getting the transmitters up so they can "see" through a window of the picture car and sitting in the passenger seat of the follow car, with just the normal whip antennas all around. My other rigs, using shark fins, antenna combiners and distro etc were perhaps a little better, but at the cost of some complexity and loss of flexibility. I myself didn't like the sound of shotgun mics rigged in the footwells of cars--too much cavity resonance for me and I had to keep moving them to avoid them being in shots. The Cub/BLM/Sonotrim-in-PZM mount thing works and sounds a lot better to me--faster to rig and change etc.. philp Thanks, Phil. I like the idea of double recording. I can rig the Comtek feed to the follow car (I'll have the other mixer with me anyway) but, of course, that will be only a mono –thus, backup– recording. As far as rigging and changing the plants and the gear in general, it's not my main concern, because we'll have at least half a day to rig and test everything before we start shooting, and we won't switching cars during the shoot, so the gear will pretty much stay put. BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Why? It's not for recording, only monitoring. What am I missing. CrewC Well, it's hard to monitor when your are getting constant dropouts or overall unbearable signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Seems as if you have had a vastly different experience than I have. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 " a vastly different experience than I have. " There are an awful lot of happy users of these out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 A colleague from Athens he doing this (yeap it's Thessaloniki city this). Scene at car. Open window and the car crackling. Straight to camera, ready mix (no post), two lavaliers (TRAM 50), Sennheiser G3 wireless Tx / Rx. Sound Devices 552 (not record, only as mixer). See (and hear) at 02:22... Not the best but.. Just Gr Tv.. http://www.megatv.com/omorfoskosmos2/default.asp?catid=30603&subid=2&pubid=31239398 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Gandy Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 Most of the dialogue I've recorded in cars have been only one person, and it's easier to just hold a microphone near them, given that most have been quick inserts, rather than full scenes. The one full dialogue scene I did was in a stationary Mercedes S-Class, and it was shot through both the driver and passenger windows with both subjects in shot. I rigged my shotgun between the legs of the person furthest from camera (with the lowest frame edge), and used my hyper below the guy closest to camera, but had it centred somewhat because they occasionally looked at each other. I just then sat in the back. Good results if I remember. This may have worked for the nature of the shoot, which was a feature, but I can't imagine such a system would work with a documentary. I didn't have radios then, so I might have stuck a pair of spots above the sun visor or on the steering wheel and dashboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted May 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Thanks, Gandy (and everybody else who has piped in so far, if I haven't thanked you already.) After reading this thread and talking with a couple of –more experienced than I– fellow mixers, the consensus is to KISS, and just go with the two wired TRAMs on the sunvisors. The only addition might be to install a Comtek antenna, clipped on the window, and record a mono mix in the follow car as a backup. I am, however, testing the 552 this weekend, recording two to three times several times in a row, to see if anything weird crops up, and to test the longevity of the NP1 battery pack. Cheers, BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 " a vastly different experience than I have. " There are an awful lot of happy users of these out there... For car to car monitoring? Show of hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 For car to car wireless, (monitoring or not) there are plenty of gotcha's to deal with... I have used them car to car, with fine results, to listen to what is going on the recorder, located in the car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.