Lav mount friction as scratchin' prediction

[Tom Morrow]

I've been thinking about how sometimes it seems helpful to add material (padding, moleskin, RM11, hushlav, etc) between the microphone and fabric that might brush against it, and other times adding that fabric seems to just make things worse. 

 

Is there any way of knowing ahead of time which will be best?  Thinking about it right now in my early-morning-not-quite-sleeping state I wonder if it all comes down to friction.

 

If the fabric is low friction or low weight (against the material like moleskin) then it can slide over it and the material keeps the sliding muffled.

 

But if the clothing fabric is high friction or heavy, then it can transmit sound through the covering.

 

I am curious what criteria others use in deciding how much bulk to add between the mic and clothing.   My general rule of thumb is to try to keep the bulk low enough that it doesn't touch much.  But there is something to be said for adding enough bulk that the place where the clothing contacts the bulk is as far away as possible from the mic.

 

I'm wondering whether adding mass (e.g. RM11) might help further with absorbing friction noise.  I actually tried some silicon gel earplugs recently to see if it might damp better.  Nothing conclusive yet.

 

This is why I'm excited to try the half-hushlav technique above; this seems like it would use all the matrials optimally.  And also might provide a good way to reuse a hushlav that might otherwise be disposed of.

[berniebeaudry]

I think silicone would be a great material to use and have been thinking for a long time about how to do it.  Nothing sticks to it and is very smooth.  All things that make it hard to mount as well.  When I evaluate a material for damping I hold it up to my ear and rub it between my thumb and finger to hear what kind of noise it makes.  Not very scientific and doesn't always tell the whole story but its an indicator to see if it might work.

[studiomprd]

" Is there any way of knowing ahead of time which will be best? "

trial and error = experience

 

" If the fabric is low friction or low weight "

like silk ?  nylon ?  polyesters ??

[Jan McL]

Experience.

 

That is all it takes.

 

[ProSound]

Experience.

 

That is all it takes.

 

It is 100 percent true after awhile you just know what the best approach will be that day however you can use the same rig on the same wardrobe everyday and then one day it sounds bad. Though there are some days you can't get it right. 

[Tom Morrow]

>" If the fabric is low friction or low weight "

>like silk ?  nylon ?  polyesters ??

 

Uh, good point.  So okay maybe I'm changing my theory that the quietest fabric is one which will just lay on top of the mic, not sliding.   All you folks with more experience, what does your experience tell you are the important factors in deciding how much material to put between the mic and clothing?  

[Rob Lewis]

With experience you develop your own methods for different types of wardrobe.  I try to create as much space as possible without creating a visible issue on camera.  There is always a compromise.  You record the cleanest tracks you can, and then its up to post to utilize their far more extensive tools to make it better.

[Michael Gassert]

it's important to remember alot of times you can have no actual microphone to clothing scratching but it sounds sratchy as shit cuz of noisy clothing and/or friction between subject and their clothing (ie formal men's wear + fat harry neck moving all around). 

 

agreed that there is no silver bullet.  but i find that maximum space between mic and clothing, minimal stress and tension on the mic/cable, and minimal bulk with whatever tapage/clips are generally good things to aim for.

[atheisticmystic]

 

This is why I'm excited to try the half-hushlav technique above; this seems like it would use all the matrials optimally.  And also might provide a good way to reuse a hushlav that might otherwise be disposed of.

I've had a few days spent wearing different shirts, different fabrics, and mic'ing myself up with my own lavs; it's how I learned the "tie knot" rig, having only read about it. Once in the field however, I've had to come up with two or three additions to each rig, as I experienced everything from mild to catastrophic failure with my self-studied techniques.

 

It is quite an incentive to figure this shit out when an intimidating actor, known for playing villains, and whose physicality is markedly unique, comes up with his tie twisted to the side, Topstick poking out obscenely, and says "I don't know what you got going on here, but it ain't fuckin' working".

 

Practice on yourself, and then just go for it; all failures are mesmerizingly beautiful if they give you the information or impetus to grow.

best

[Zack]

I find heavy cottons are the best, and lighter polyesters are more problematic. I know it will be a good day when talent is wearing a polo

[stevegrider]

I generally don't like to mount anything much more elaborate than an RM11. Sometimes I use Transpore, sometimes I use moleskin to tape it in. As far a knowing ahead of time, I never know a rig is going to work until the first rehearsal. We might be able to hide the mic from sight and securely fasten it, but many problems arise from the actor's movement. It could be chest hair against a starched shirt or a five o'clock shadow scraping across a collar. I guess there are no easy answers to the art of hiding mics :s

[Jan McL]

Ya know, I've said this before and am moved to say it again: how much, young lad, would it be worth to you to do a lavaliere boot camp? Five 12-hour days. How about if I told you you still wouldn't wire but marginally better unless we had 100 different people doing 100 different physical things in 100 different costumes in 20 different kinds of foul weather. That would cost a lot of money.

 

Fact is, first and foremost, you gotta be able to think outta the box. Problem solve.

 

You gather tools.

 

You work with wardrobe. Go through their tie collection.

 

You work with props. Freaking stethoscopes.

 

You work with set dressing when you put a plant out because the lav'll go to crap when she sits down and they start necking and they're wide and tight.

 

You look at a rehearsal and understand immediately what all of it means to all potential mic techniques and plan accordingly.

 

Sometimes, it just sounds like crap.

 

The politics of it all.

 

The focus required.

 

How does one teach that (and those thousand other things I've no impetus to write) without requiring the hours of in-the-field experience. Under pressure. I'm sure most are more savvy than me, but...took me a long time to get it together. Staying cool through even the worst equipment fail because you know you can be up and running quickly.

 

I had too much respect for the craft to try and climb the ladder too fast. Inch by inch. It mattered--I thought and continue to think--that I not appear threatening. Chick thing probably. Maybe. 

 

You catch me loquacious this long weekend as I begin prep in earnest for a very exciting project.

 

It will push me in a direction I've been long-term building with a feature-capable Zax-based bag rig.

 

Very excited.

 

This week's question is do I like the AES between QRX and Nomad or analog. For sure, I have to have a new DE-15 breakout manufactured. The one I bought used isn't configured for my needs. Drat.

 

And there, I've gone and hijacked your thread Grasshopper.

 

Sorry

 

Wiring is one of the most creative things I get to do. It is part of my process to know where the mic is and where the cable travels and through what obstacles so that I may more easily know whence an anomaly might live.

 

Where the resonator is relative to the mic.

 

Precisely.

 

That mic lives at the end of my fingers on the faders.

 

Hand-eye-ear connection.

 

The score that is the sides upon which I draw and color outside the lines.

 

The pure pleasure of getting it right, even with many mics.

[al mcguire]

>You look at a rehearsal

 

what's  "rehearsal"  ?

was that a film term that no longer applies to our CF card world ?

[Simon Hayes]

Outstanding post Jan.

 

Really outstanding.

[Jan McL]

>You look at a rehearsal

 

what's  "rehearsal"  ?

was that a film term that no longer applies to our CF card world ?

 

Al, don't make me stop this cart.

Outstanding post Jan.

 

Really outstanding.

 

I love you too, Simon

[al mcguire]

yes dear, sorry

[Olle Sjostrom]

Oh rehearsals. How I miss thee.

There's no magic bullet for laving.. But if nothing else works, I pull up a dpa concealer and try that, if that doesn't work it's gonna sound like crap whatever you do.. Ime. Ymmv.

Note that dpa concealers are not my first go to. I feel it makes the dpa just a bit too dull..

For shirts, I use the ordinary lav clip and put it between the button side and the, uh, other side.. That way you get space between the fabrics and the lav is secure in free space and it's hidden. Works pretty good mostly..

Also thought of using something like a rubber eraser or the likes.

Jan, loved your post. These are just some of my go to weapons but your post says it all, how complex it is and how little of our work is actually rigging and wiring, but really more about being able to make quick decisions and hanging on to a thread hoping it was a good decision. Moving on!

[Jan McL]

Hey, Olle, to what 'ordinary lav clip' do you refer for the DPA? Is there one that comes with, or...

[Jan McL]

You know, such a boot camp might be possible were it a moveable feast...with day-long visits to those departments above mentioned.

[Olle Sjostrom]

Hey, Olle, to what 'ordinary lav clip' do you refer for the DPA? Is there one that comes with, or...

This is the one I'm talking about. When I started out, this clip was the 'ordinary' one for ENG style. Nowadays there's some weird clip that's sort of poking out. Those break easily. But here's the clip:

This is how I use it on buttoned (i wrote shirts in my previous post, but i meant buttoned.. ) shirts:

[Jan McL]

Have taken to trying Undercovers on 'em for a few weeks and was pretty happy. Just need to be a hair larger to really work the way I want's 'em to work, but...

[jason porter]

I am currently on a "reality-type show" where we have to wire up 5-6 people everyday with little to no control over wardrobe and absolutely no boom option. The go to rig is just an RM-11 & a bit of butyl (snot tape) That is where our team starts and progress from there. Sometimes just Transpore, a vampire clip, makeup sponge wedge in the cleavage, Over/Undercover, Moleskin etc. Whatever it takes.

One secret that I will share, a square of electrical tape on the back of the RM-11 adds some "slickness" and a square of Transpore on the other side, to keep the snot tape from destroying the RM-11 (the rubber is really thin on that side, and butyl is very sticky)

[Marc Wielage]

Is there any way of knowing ahead of time which will be best?  Thinking about it right now in my early-morning-not-quite-sleeping state I wonder if it all comes down to friction.

 

Wow, some great advice in my thread. My thought is, no -- just be prepared for everything and anything.

 

I've had situations where we've had to mic up six actors, and five are flawless and one sounds like two pieces of sandpaper rubbing together. Over time, I've realized that there's three potential sources for noise: 1) clothing against clothing, 2) skin against the mic, and 3) cloth against the mic. There's not a heck of a lot you can do about #1. I had a situation a few days ago with an on-camera spokesman where I was driven mad with clothing noise, but because we also boomed him (and the boom was better), I could also hear the very slight clothing noise on the boom. In a wide-angle scripted setting, we would've had to gone to more extreme solutions.

 

Sometimes, anchoring the clothing itself down with double-stick tape can help reduce clothing noise, but it's an issue that takes time to solve. I have often lamented, "this is not a mic problem -- this is a wardrobe problem," to no avail. The undercovers have generally worked for me, but too much depends on the chaos theory of that particular day, that particular actor, and wardrobe. 

 

It's also amazing how many actors can sound good with a lav in a certain position, and then horrible with the same mic moved less than half a foot away. Placement is everything, but unfortunately, we're limited by wardrobe and by camera. 

 

Most challenging lav situation for me: four scantily-clad female dancers running through a warehouse. Sweat killed us on that one. I found out real fast that the SMs are vulnerable to even a drop or two of salty perspiration getting into the TA5 socket, which goes right into the preamp board. I've already had to replace two of them for this reason. 

[Sound Art Film]

My quick addition here...If you can't get clothing on mic to sound quiet enough, try something similar to my tram technique listed under the workflow section here at JWsound. The trick is to create a little air pocket for the mic to exist with the absolute minimal amount of contact of the cage to clothing. If done right (1-2mm gap) the setup is quite transparent and will only show on the tightest of all tight wardrobes. Something else to munch on... :-). Good luck all!

[Tom Morrow]

The reality is that if there is rubbing it is going to be audible whether it is a millimeter from the mic or an inch. But if it is an inch you might get away with it.