which frame rate, shooting or post?

[cinetj]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm shooting soon a comercial with two 5ds cameras.  I've been told that the comercial will be shot in 24 fps. During the editing process, the image will be pulled down 0,1% in Final Cut to 23,98 fps.

 

Which frame rate should I stamp on my audio files ? 24 (shooting fps) or 23,98 (post fps)?. I've already had problems in the past with FCP pulling up or down my audio inadvertently. 

[RPSharman]

I'd use 23.98 24/48

Your audio will be synced in the 23.98 timeline.

But perhaps ask the "genius" making the decision to shoot 24 and pull down (can 5d shoot 24?) what he/she wants you to do. And get it in writing.

Robert

[Michael McQueen]

the 5d doesn't shoot true 24. the menu may say 24 but its really 23.98 (i forget, its been a while since i've looked). thats been a huge problem with a lot of these new dslr "dp's". they don't know the difference. not a lot of cameras shoot true 24, the red and alexa are the 2 common cameras that will shoot true 24. 

[RPSharman]

the 5d doesn't shoot true 24. the menu may say 24 but its really 23.98 (i forget, its been a while since i've looked). thats been a huge problem with a lot of these new dslr "dp's". they don't know the difference. not a lot of cameras shoot true 24, the red and alexa are the 2 common cameras that will shoot true 24.

That's what I thought.

[WhyOne]

But perhaps ask the "genius" making the decision to shoot 24 and pull down (can 5d shoot 24?) what he/she wants you to do. And get it in writing.

Robert

 

Robert is right on. While "24fps" is bantered about these days, there are actually very few electronic cinema devices capable of true 24fps, and 23.976 (23.98) is the actual frame rate.

 

The best way to CYA is to specifically ask the post genius "Do you mean 24fps or 23.976fps?" and get it in writing.

The appropriate frame rate for production recording is NOT the decision of the Production Mixer. (It is appropriate for the Production Mixer to ask pointed questions, point out potential pitfalls, and voice an opinion, but NOT to decide...)

 

Jay

[Philip Perkins]

But Jay--many post geniuses think their systems are running at 24, because that's what the system tells them.  For instance, all the 23.98 OMFs I get from FCP 7 are flagged as 24.  But asking is the best policy for sure, at least for your own "plausible deniability", in case the camera actually DOES do a real 24 fps, intentional or not.

 

philp

[John Blankenship]

Also, it's important to know the difference between "time base", "frame rate," and "time code.". They're three different things. Unfortunately, even some of the more experienced camera people don't understand the distinction and will, unknowingly, give misleading information about camera settings.

"Pull-up" and "pull-down" is another area where newly minted "experts" are often clueless. Adding to that, due to common misuse, their meanings have changed over the last couple of years, leading to even further misunderstanding.

[cinetj]

Thank you for the info! And to think that the dp told me in a quite arrogant way that he was shooting at 24 fps... the poor bastard.

[Jay Rose]

Pull up and pull down is also an area where FCP can be clueless, changing the sample rate of files even if the operator doesn't ask for it. So you might want to get the frame rate and the sample rate in writing. Ask production to check with their editor if they're not sure.

[JonG]

These are the kinds of things that cameras do that make shooters not understand what they are really doing, which drives me crazy. Every time I am on a project, no one can actually tell me what frame rate we are shooting at because cameras don't say 23.98, they say 24. If they say 30, they mean 29.97, but most shooters dont even know the difference between DF and NDF, so whenever I ask a specific question like frame rate, I get a short hand answer from the camera dept. 

[studiomprd]

" the red and alexa are the 2 common cameras that will shoot true 24.  "

while they can shoot true 24.000 FPS, they often shoot at 23.976 (aka 23.98) FPS.

Edited June 1, 2013 by studiomprd

[John Blankenship]

Drop Frame vs Non-Drop Frame:

 

Along the lines of...

 

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

I submit:

 

How many frames does drop frame drop if drop frame doesn't drop frames?

 

In this case, the answer is in the question = ZERO. 

 

To clarify, if I have ten scantily-clad dancing girls standing in front of me and I count them:

 

One two three four five six seven eight nine ten.

 

...but then I count the same ten ladies:

 

One two three four six seven eight nine ten eleven.

 

...the chorus line hasn't changed one bit -- only how I counted them.  That's drop frame in a fantasy nutshell.

 

Thank you, ladies.

 

 

 

[Marc Wielage]

Good job, John B! I've told this to many post clients before: "the frames are not really dropped... only the numbers are dropped." There used to be terrible confusion on this in the 1980s and 1990s.

 

The Canon 5D is definitely only 23.98; it's covered on page 376 of the manual, but they don't make it obvious and they tend to confuse 24.000 and 23.976 (aka 23.98):

 

[Simon Hayter]

" the red and alexa are the 2 common cameras that will shoot true 24.  "

while they can shoot true 24.000 FPS, they usually shoot at 23.976 (aka 23.98) FPS.

Maybe in your neck of the woods!

[studiomprd]

" There used to be terrible confusion on this in the 1980s and 1990s. "

there still is

[Marc Wielage]

Maybe in your neck of the woods!

 

We were thrown a couple of times at Complete Post and Technicolor in Hollywood when a major-studio client would go out and shoot a digital project at 24.000fps and not tell us! There'd be much screaming and yelling when things started drifting out of sync...

 

The biggest one I can think of was Adam Sandler's comedy Grown Ups, and I seem to recall the first day's dailies were an absolute nightmare since nobody could make it work. After a half-dozen frantic late-night phone calls, the second day, everything was done at 24.000fps and equally pulled-down (just like film), and everything synced up and stayed in sync for the duration. And that was a film where there were quite a few 20- and 25-minute takes, due to the improv nature of the production.