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Herbert Verdino

Which MS stereo solution?

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Hi all,

 

I wana buy an MS stereo boom solution for my documentery and reportage jobs. At the moment I am working mostly with an Neumann RSM 191.

Great sound, but very sensible at handling noices, wind, RF influences... I also do not like the extra Matrix box. Just one thing more in my bag, that can break in the fild.

 

I was thinking to buy an used  MKH 30 + MKH 60. I like Sennheiser, but it is an heavy and big solution. I do not understand, why Sennheiser does not make an 8 from there new MKH8000 product line?

Maybe Shoeps?

 

...generaly I am not shure tu buy an all in one MS mic or an two mic solution.

Is the whole system more sensible to wind, because, the side mic is closer to the edge of the blimp?

 

 

A college of mine recomendet me the Audio Technica mics. They have a cool feature, to switch on the mic between MS and XY output.

 

 

What do you use?

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Herbert: You don't make mention of what the primary application will be. Do you intend to use this for dialog pickup, or ambiance & SFX? There have been quite a few discussion on the topic on the JW site over the years, which you should be able to find by doing a forum search.

 

FYI: Any M/S or stereo mic configuration will be more susceptible to wind noise and handling noise when operating in a full-wide stereo mode.

 

My personal preference for fishpole work is usually the Schoeps, primarily for the ability to remote the capsules from the amplifier. On the Fisher boom, we have used all sorts of mikes and configurations, depending on the setup (including two U-87A's mounted end-to- end!)

 

--S

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Guest Taskin

I have just got a CCM8 to attach on my CMIT5 and had a quick play, its pretty silent when it comes to handling noise plus extremely light, and I am using a 788T so no need for a matrix box, but it is pricey...

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I have just got a CCM8 to attach on my CMIT5 and had a quick play, its pretty silent when it comes to handling noise plus extremely light, and I am using a 788T so no need for a matrix box, but it is pricey...

I use the above combo when stereo is stereo is requested for atmos etc and it has proved successful. It is a compromise due to the CMIT having a narrower pattern than an ideal MS setup should have but ability to switch to a shotgun mono for dialogue is important to me.

A good basket (Rycote or Cinela) with fluffy and high wind sock should (does) deal with all but the most fierce of wind conditions.

As pointed out your mixer/recorder will need and MS to AB matrix unless you intend recording in MS (MS recording - not very common in my experience).

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Guest Taskin

I use the above combo when stereo is stereo is requested for atmos etc and it has proved successful. It is a compromise due to the CMIT having a narrower pattern than an ideal MS setup should have but ability to switch to a shotgun mono for dialogue is important to me.

A good basket (Rycote or Cinela) with fluffy and high wind sock should (does) deal with all but the most fierce of wind conditions.

As pointed out your mixer/recorder will need and MS to AB matrix unless you intend recording in MS (MS recording - not very common in my experience).

 

Hey, yeah narrow M might not always be as useful but I do also have a CMC6 with MK4 and MK41 capsules if needed, also a Rycote WS AE for the windy days. Let me mention one more time how good it is against handling noise, its pretty amazing.

 

788T can record both in ST or as separate M/S if needed and also it is able to provide HP monitoring for MS, you can also set the amount of M and S in your recordings if you choose to go with ST...

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My Neumann RSM stereo mic is over 25 years old.  The original cables and the matrix box still work just fine having recorded a decade's worth of SFX and ambiances out in the weather from jungles to frozen mountaintops.  The matrix box has been "drowned" by water on several occasions--was dried out and then worked exactly fine.  Since those days that mic has recorded a huge number of all sorts of music etc jobs, ie has been in and out of the van hundreds of times, and been set up anywhere from the smokiest of clubs to the biggest of outdoor venues.  Still sounds great.  The AT mic is a good one but to my ears does not have the resolution of detail of the Neumann.   The Sennheiser is more recent design--probably quieter than the Neumann, ditto Sanken.  I encourage you to test drive them--they are all a decent sized investment.

 

philp

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As also have a Schoeps CCM8 with CMIT and MK4/MK41.

I love the ability yo use the figure8 mic in any configuration : ambient sound with MK4, dialogue etc with either CMIT and MK41.

Plus I love Schoeps sound.

And it fits in a regular diameter Rycote. But you need to boom very carefully.

Or you can buy Cinela's Zepplin.

 

What is also important is the weight. CCM8 weight 41g, which is at least half of any other 8figure mic. At the end of a boompole this small difference matters!

Compared to RSM191 this is night and day.

 

That is a quite a budget for the whole, but it worse the price and you will use them for decades.

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Handling-wise, single-body mics are easiest, of course. The AudioTechnica to my ears seems best value for money. We're not talking big cinema pictures, right?

More versatile would be the "separate mic on top" route, and I'd strongly suggest using a compact mic like the Schoeps CCM8 or the Ambient Emesser which is designed precisely for boom use (and also the cheapest option).

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I agree, using two mics the most practical solution and the Schoeps variant certainly sounds great. Someone said that the two mics are also more susceptible to wind noise. I cannot confirm that myself, but if there ever really is a risk of wind noise, it's best to use a single basket solution, I think. It's not pleasant to record stereo with two windshields and only one mics gets affected by wind.

Rycote also build a stereo kit which is the same length as the standard one, but is a bit larger in diameter. This may help those who are worried about the 8 getting too close to the edge.

Sound-wise I think MS is best suited to docs and all projects where a small setup is important. If you want to use for ambiance recording out on your own, I'd use something else

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I am quite pleased with my single piece Pearl MSH10 for mainly documentary work. http://www.pearlmicrophones.com/index.php/products/microphones-by-application-film-video/msh10andmsh20-detail

I must say I used Pearl MS8CL many years ago and was very impressed with the sound quality. The MS8CL model has a cardioid 'M' capsule whereas the MSH10 has a "short shotgun cardioid" which should be more suited to doc type stuff IMHO, so I'm not surprised Suresh is happy with his.

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Hi all!

 

IMHO, a pair of Schoeps CCM4 or 41 and CCM8 in a Cinela Zephyx Z-CCM-MS is the lightest option out there apart from the all-in-one MS mics made by AT or Sennheiser.

 

http://www.cinela.fr/catalog.php?pid=17

 

This rig is small, light and gets rid of the handling noise more than any other suspension I've tried in the past. The Zephyx windshield has also very little effect on the mic's sound, even with the long-hair fur on top of it.

 

Keep in mind that the AT mic is an electret and thus has quite a lot of self-noise. It is a great camera mic, though!

 

The Sanken CSS-5 and CMS-10 ARE NOT MS mics. The output of these otherwise great microphones is internally dematrixed to L-R or mono.

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Css-5 is a MS microphone. You have Mid - the front capsule and you have side capsules. The only difference is that the MS process happens in the Mic. You have 3 modes of operation - mono,stereo and wide.

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Yes, but he also said that the signal is internally matrixed to L/R which pretty much implies M/S.

To rephrase: I think you two meant pretty much the same thing

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I spent 3 weeks in Ethiopia on a doc and used a Sennheiser 418 everyday. I made a 12ft., 5 pin cable for the pole and recorded the M & S on separate tracks but decoded in my headphones. I loved having the reach of a "416" for veritè moments and FX. It was less ideal for ambience and I generally prefer Schoeps for interviews but I LOVED having a single mic inside a regular size Zeppelin. And I didn't worry about it failing due to heat/humidity, etc. A major factor to booming in stereo is the orientation of the microphone. I bought a swivel adapter made by Ambient and would adjust it based on what side of the camera I was working from.

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Hi all.

 

I know It's been a while, that I was starting this conversation and just wanted to bring it to an end.

 

Thank you all, for your advices. After all, I decided to stay with old trusted Sennheiser

and so I was buying me now 2 setups :-).

One MKH 418s and a MKH 50/60 setup with an MKH 30.

 

 

The MKH 50/60 + 30 is planed to be my main MS stereo setup. So far, my first test's where pretty good. The MKH 30 is a very nice 8 and the stereo image sounds not much different from the RSM to me + I have the possibility to change the mid channel from hyper cardiode to an shotgun mic. I am planing to use the MKH 50 as mid channel for inside recording and the MKH 60 as outside mid mic.

The whole system needs to be in a bigger wind basket and the mic's are quit big. So maybe not the best choice for fast action booming with a sound bag over the shoulder.

 

 

The MKH 418s will be my backup Stereo mic. It fits in an normal size wind basket and I will use it for "running around" shootings.

Speaking of sound. The side channel is a little noisy, but It's the same with the RSM. Although to my ears the stereo image is a little bit woolly compared to the RSM and the 50/60 + 30 setup.

 

Unfortunately I could never hear an Shoeps MS setup. Would love to compare my Sennheiser setup with an Schoeps Setup

...I hope one day I will own all the mic's on this planet!

 

Best  

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I tried the Emesser once and think it sound's like crap.

 

The only small 8 you can use is the Schoeps ccm.

A college of mine uses an Schoeps ccm 8 with an MKH 416 and is very satisfied with this solution.

It fits also in a normal blimp.

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I had the emesser ATE 208 for two quick jobs and thought it was quite decent. Not as good as my MKH 30 but way better than a rental 418 that had really  lots of selfnoise.

The original Emesser wasn't that good I heard. Do you know if you tested the newer 208 Emessser? In what way you feel it sounds crap?

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IMMO another contender are the AKG SE300 + CK94, are a very decent 8 capsule (single membrane fig 8, noisier than the ATE 208 (on papers) but better freq response.

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