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Which MS stereo solution?


Herbert Verdino

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It could be, that I was trying the older version of the Emesser. It is now maybe 3 years ago, since I was putting the Emesser on my Neumann KMR 81i and went out to record some ambiences. But I did not know, that there is a newer one out.

When I remember right, the Emesser was very very noisy and could never reach the warmth and resolution of Neumann.

Of cours it is not fair to compare the Emesser to the Neumann, but I think, that is the reason, why I wanted now

an stereo solution, where the mid and the side mic is from the same product line, or at least in sound quality equal.

 

I was also thinking to buy an Neumann 8 and use it with my KMR 81i. But with my princess Neumann I have sometimes RF and moisture problems. Sennheiser is known for there bulletproofnes. 

 

The advantage of the MKH 418 is, that it is a single mic. And for interviews with a little bit "stereo extra" it will do the job.

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The early Emesser was much thinner than the new Emesser, so easy to distinguish visually which one you've got,

On original topic, I use CCM41/CCM8 in dedicated Rycote ball gag for docus (also have the Ambient "Twister" permanently attached),

Have an available CCM4 to switch out for more specific ambience recording,

Absolutely love the rig, been around the world with it!

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I also tried the (new) Emesser as potential buyer and it indeed sounds bad. To much presence at around 3 - 4 kHz. I ended up also getting a Schoeps CCM8.

 

I find the Pearl MSH 10 a very interesting mic, haven't heard of that one before I think. I definitely have to check it out... edit: Hmm it's bigger and heavier that I thought.

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That Superlux does indeed work well enough for the occasional doc or ambiences. More rugged than one expects from a chinese cheapo mic.

If I did documentary as main occupation, I'd go for a 418 or BP40xx. Doing fiction most of the time, money is better spent on wireless channels and long booms.

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The Schoeps setup is the best in normal conditions. But when it´s foggy, cold and raining (high humidity) the Schoeps is going a way.

The 8 and also the 41 got this problems. I also got really stress with the blue cmit 5 in this condition.

I use oftener a KM 120 (8) from Neumann and for the mid a KM 140 © or KM 150 (hc). They sound not so gentle and smooth as the Schoeps but they are not so sensitive against humidity. Also both need a really soft handed boom  8)

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  • 3 weeks later...

So, I had now some time to play around with my new MKH 60 + MKH 30 setup and have to say, that I am really NOT satisfied with this 

Solution.

 

The MKH 30 is very sensitive to handling noise. Much more than I was expecting. I know, that an figure 8 mic is always more sensitive to everything, but in this case, I am really not happy. It is nearly impossible to boom with the system. And work with the boom over the shoulder is much more impossible.

The mic's are mounted in an Rycote AG System. I was spending 2 hours at my reseller here in Austria Ton-Eichinger and tried different clips and ways to mount the system better. But with no effect. When I was using softer clips, the handling noises where much less but the microphones where mounted to soft and where swinging to much around. I am using also a Con Box.

 

I went to Sennheiser Austria, they checked the mic and everything was Ok with it. I showed them my problem, but they had also no solution for me.

 

The handling noises are gone, if I switch the Low Cut filter on my Aaton Cantar at 180Hz / 12dB.

I would have no problem to use such a strong filter only in the side channel, where my handling problems are. Having al the lower frequencies come from the MKH 60. 

But if the inputs on the Cantar are linked as a stereo pair, I can only use the same filter on both mic Channels.

 

At the moment I am thinking to throw the whole system away and try an Schoeps MS solution.

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So, I had now some time to play around with my new MKH 60 + MKH 30 setup and have to say, that I am really NOT satisfied with this 

Solution.

 

The MKH 30 is very sensitive to handling noise. Much more than I was expecting. I know, that an figure 8 mic is always more sensitive to everything, but in this case, I am really not happy. It is nearly impossible to boom with the system. And work with the boom over the shoulder is much more impossible.

The mic's are mounted in an Rycote AG System. I was spending 2 hours at my reseller here in Austria Ton-Eichinger and tried different clips and ways to mount the system better. But with no effect. When I was using softer clips, the handling noises where much less but the microphones where mounted to soft and where swinging to much around. I am using also a Con Box.

 

I went to Sennheiser Austria, they checked the mic and everything was Ok with it. I showed them my problem, but they had also no solution for me.

 

The handling noises are gone, if I switch the Low Cut filter on my Aaton Cantar at 180Hz / 12dB.

I would have no problem to use such a strong filter only in the side channel, where my handling problems are. Having al the lower frequencies come from the MKH 60. 

But if the inputs on the Cantar are linked as a stereo pair, I can only use the same filter on both mic Channels.

 

At the moment I am thinking to throw the whole system away and try an Schoeps MS solution.

 

CCM8 begins to roll of about there so you might have more luck 

 

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/ccm8/graphics

 

You could try a rycote tacit on the MKH30 if you haven't already. 

 

Good luck

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The MKH60 is big and bulky for MS - I would try one of the 80 series instead - 8060, 8050 or 8040, and do a steep cut on the 30. It is a great pity that Sennheiser seem unable to do a 8030. Rycote often suggest solutions which necessitate large, unwieldy blimps, but many people craft their own solutions with a bit of trial and error, and often find they can fit their mics into a smaller windshield.

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Thank you. Yes, I have tried the Tacit. But this is cutting at 60Hz and has no effect in my case

I use an Ambient floater which makes all the difference for me with two different MS setups, adds to the weight a little, but less than it looks as if it might, and integrates with whatever you might already have, (I have Rycote lyres) as it's a boom add on.

http://www.ambient.de/en/products/ambient-recording/boompoles/accessories/qfl/floater-set.html

 

And then of course there's all the Cinela mounts which are very good but not inexpensive.

http://www.cinela.fr/zephyx.php?language=en

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I used to have an MK8 (exact same pattern as the CCM8) that I used with a MK4 or 41 in a Rycote MS short ball type set up, each with a KC5/cut1/CMC6, and the 8 was, much like you describe with your 30, very difficult to boom with. Because of the lack of demand for any kind of stereo in what I do, I ended up selling it. I still have the Rycote if you're interested... :wacko:  

 

post-159-0-28359800-1387208868_thumb.jpg

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Hi Herbert, as pindrop suggested before, I would also strongly recommend the Floater system from Ambient Recording.

I am using this on every MS-Rig I use. Audio Technica AT 835st, Neumann 120+140, Neumann Double-MS(140+120+140) in a DPA-windpack.

I have rented the AT+floater+normal Rycote Basket to a soundmixer who did the film about Evelyn Glennie and he was very happy with it.

http://www.thomas-riedelsheimer.de/Touch_the_Sound.html

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+3 on the Ambient Floater.  You can't really handhold a M/S stereo rig without one.

 

The rig you see to the left (in my avatar) was the only way I could do nice ambiences before I got the floater, now I can do them from my boompole.

 

One more thing to buy... sorry...  

 

Cheers,

Brent Calkin

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  • 1 month later...

Thank you all for the tip with the floater. It is really absorbing more handling noises. Although I am still not really satisfied, because the whole system is now really big and bulky. Anyway, I can work now on my next project's with this system. Sorry, Senator, I will keep the mic's a while longer now ;-) The guys from Ambient where relay nice. After I got the Floater I tried to adjust the strength by adding two more rubber discs. But I was unable to open the screw. I was sending the Floater back to Ambient and they made me the offer, that I could send them a picture from my rig and they will adjust the Floater for me, with the right strength. The have two different types of rubber discs, they told me... Yesterday I tried a Schoeps CCM 8 + Cmit MS Stereo rig. And I think now also, that this system is a better solution. Much less handling noise (without floater)!!! much lighter, also fits in regular blimp, Maybe I buy me one, after my next job... The reason, why I wanted Sennheiser in the first place is there bulled proofenes. I never had problems with moisture, temperature or RF influences. But it makes me sad, that Senheiser is not able to deal with handling noises specially when they know, that the MKH's are mainly used in film and broadcast and used often on a boom stick.

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You can't do it with a Neumann RSM 191.

Sennheiser 418s sides are too noisy, just like the 191... and that wooly sound.....

Emesser sounds like crap.

MKH 30.. too much handling noise. 

Ambient Floater too much weight and bulky....

Going to try Schoeps because less handling noise than Sennheiser MKH,,,,,???? HUH?

 

Maybe M/S is not for you.

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