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forced call


rcklseric

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i was just on a show. we had a 13 hour shoot  day and then a two hour drive to the next location ( the hotel so a 15+ our day).

 

the next day we had a 6:45 am call. approx an 8 hour turnaround. this is a non union show and we were told ( verbally, not in writing) we wouldnt go over 12, but there was nothing in the deal memo about  turnarounds., but i was wondering if this was a violation of the labor laws.  do we have the right if forced, to submit for  a time and a half day for the next day... legally? or is what they did even legal by basic labor standards.

 

i did look up labor laws but it didnt really answer this question.

 

 

thanks

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" i was wondering if this was a violation of the labor laws. "

maybe, it depends...

among other factors: state, are you properly employed (W2, payroll)

and reading laws properly typically requires an experienced professional (lawyer!)...

even then, there may be disagreement --thus courts!

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No, last time I checked there is nothing in California law about turnaround time. As far as I know, this is something that has to be included in the deal memo. 

 

I'm a big fan of 12-on/12-off, but if you're driving two hours to and from a location every day, even this could get very rough over time. The last couple of times this has happened to me, the producer voluntarily pushed the next day's call time by 2 hours, but only because the actors complained.

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" i was wondering if this was a violation of the labor laws. "

maybe, it depends...

among other factors: state, are you properly employed (W2, payroll)

and reading laws properly typically requires an experienced professional (lawyer!)...

even then, there may be disagreement --thus courts!

 

Loving the new hat!!

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Yes. Poor treatment is common, and I don't believe there are many laws protecting turnaround, if any.

All you can do is refuse to put yourself and others at risk by falling asleep at the wheel. If you are too tired to drive, you shouldn't.

(Brief rant to follow...)

The way forced calls on union shows are calculated these days, there's very little financial disincentive to production to force crew. We can blame our union representatives for that, and for deals where 14 hours are allowed before double time. These are the same contracts which allow for cheap forced calls. Our reps never have to worry about long days and short turnaround, so it just gets given up. Producers will do what they're allowed to do. That's their job. It's a union's job to prevent abuse, not encourage it.

It's usually up to the actors, by contract or by refusal, to save us from short turnarounds.

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To answer the question: No, there isn't anything legally that exists to protect you from long days and short turnarounds.

 

That is what the unions are for. If this is reality, then you most likely don't have the option of Actors Equity people on set, which is sad, b/c my experiences are that Equity is firm as a brick wall about the 12/12. IATSE, unfortunately... Has become the producer's best friend, because they are so desperate to get SOMETHING coming in, that they are willing to give away everything that they should be fighting to protect for their members. Once these things are given away, they will NEVER come back. At least, not without a massive fight that the IA is proving they don't have the stomach for anymore.

 

Your only option is to quietly ask the DP for his thoughts about this, and see if you can get consensus. Without that... If you go to the producer and ask that they push the call or reduce the days to something manageable... They will just replace you. Why? Because you have nothing in writing. Deal memos (even just a quick email) are the only thin line of protection you might have. The ultimate weapon you have is simply not putting yourself at risk, and saying no.

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But i was promised by the producer on the phone that it was highly unlikely we would go over 12. that assurance and a subway token should get me a ride on a train in NY.

 

live and learn. from now on im going to get ever single detailed spelled out  in my deal memo. this was an abusive production company from day one. AND a  not so great rate too. its funny that everytime i get my full rate we are treated well, but everytime i accept a lower deal,  the crew gets abused. its almost always true.. thank you all for the feedback. EXCEPT YOU  WHITNEY!!!

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But i was promised by the producer on the phone that it was highly unlikely we would go over 12. 

Then you need to have him eat his words. If you can afford to lose the job then you need to push back and fight for fairness! Their lack of preparation doesn't mean a crisis on your part. Try to build an alliance with the other departments and speak in unison. 

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I would imagine that if forced calls were illegal then most productions wouldn't risk them for fear of legal repercussions. (Though there are unscrupulous companies that pull all kinds of illegal stuff if they think that they can get away with it). 

 

I had one show where every day was forced a call. They had figured out staggering the actors call times to keep SAG happy. We had complained to the line producer a few times but nothing changed.  In the end most the crew had enough and banded together. One night after a 15 hour day the call sheets came out with 6 hour turn around. Grip, Electric, Camera  and my sound department  made a decision to not show up for work until 12 hours had passed. Make up and art didn't want to rock the boat and so they didn't join us.

 

The next day much ranting and raving and threatening to fire the entire crew, then the realization that to replace the entire crew would be cost prohibitive, things actually changed from that day on- we always got at least 10 hours and our days became shorter to accommodate the turn around. 

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thumbsup.gif to Martin for making a stand!

 

I agree, getting the other departments involved is a good idea. I can remember one pretty awful shoot where they told us around 4PM that we would wrap around 7:30 (going 1/2 hour late), but we actually wound up going past 10PM, which was a real bear. I got in touch with the DP after the shoot and sent him the actual timecode numbers for the end of the shoot, pointing out that we should be firm on getting the O.T.  He agreed. Luckily in this case, we were off the following day, so it wasn't a disaster, but it could well have been.

 

The problem with asking if they can include a provision for short turnaround in the deal memos is, I've been hit with "oh, we can't do that," or "we'll get back to you on that" (which could mean, "we're going to look for somebody else"). Last I checked, the IA rule was 10 hours turnaround portal-to-portal, which I think is very fair (assuming reasonable driving distances). But with non-union situations, the rules get fuzzier and more vague every year. 

 

What I'm unclear on is what the penalty would be for short turnaround. When I've worked under a union contract in post, my memory is that we got an additional 10% for less than 8 hours turnaround, and at some point, we were on 1.5X time from the moment we walked into the door (and OT after 4 hours, I think). But our management got very rankled if we attempted to enforce this condition.

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But i was promised by the producer on the phone that it was highly unlikely we would go over 12. that assurance and a subway token should get me a ride on a train in NY.

live and learn. from now on im going to get ever single detailed spelled out in my deal memo. this was an abusive production company from day one. AND a not so great rate too. its funny that everytime i get my full rate we are treated well, but everytime i accept a lower deal, the crew gets abused. its almost always true.. thank you all for the feedback. EXCEPT YOU WHITNEY!!!

Valuable lesson learned. It's also been my experience that the better paying jobs treat crews better, have better supplies/snacks/accommodations and usually have a better final product.

That whole "we won't go over 12, but can't put that in writing" is nonsense.

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Over here we have a legislated 10 hour turn around - part of OH&S laws. Was hard to get the production companies to abide by it until it was made clear that our insurance was only valid if we had more than 10 hrs between calls. Basically they are legally liable in event of an accident etc. slightly different as we mostly operate as independent contractors here.

Principal still the same. Stick to it!

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From my non-union narrative days (which had the benefit of actor turnarounds): We would make our day rate and OT parameters ahead of time. But I think we always had more power by picking a shop steward as soon as the show began and then making sure the turnaround and caps on the days were reasonable. Like Marc said it's hard to nail them down on the turnaround rule ahead of time, but as Martin demonstrated, having the crew involved once shooting starts gives you more of an advantage. Whatever your views on union politics, the basic atom of a union is group of workers on one job getting together and making a case for working conditions. 

 

Btw, NY has a 9-hour turnaround unless the previous working day reach a certain number of hours (like 12-14). A lot of times we piggy back on the camera department, who for all their lousy meal penalty rates, at least as a 10-hour turnaround.

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The rules under most IA agreements are that if your turnaround is violated, you return to work at the rate under which you left until your turnaround has been met. So... On a Tier deal where you make $40/hr, and you work 14 hours. You leave at 2x. You are given 9 hours turnaround instead of contracted 10, It will cost production $40 to force you. But let's say you work 13 hours with 30 minute lunch. You are forced at 9.5 hours. It costs production $10.

The old rule used to be that you return to work at the rate you left, and remain at that rate until proper turnaround is given. So on a normal deal where you leave after 12 hours at double time, you return at double time for the full day. So you'd receive 10 extra pay hours on ANY forced call. Even fifteen minutes. Now THAT's how you keep them from abusing you.

Robert

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I've been there with the verbal agreement when the producer lost control of director and we went 14 + 2hours transportation on a 6 day 4 week feature. Crew banded together and a little change happened for the next week but went back to hell the last week.

Unfortunately verbal does little these days when you don't have a rapport with them.

Upon reading this thread and Others, maybe we could start a "helpful tips for negotiations" thread.

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In NY/Philadelphia  (IA #52) the rule is 9 hour turnaround unless the day goes over 14 from call time, including lunch (and second meal).  Then turnaround becomes 10 hours.  Unless it has changed the rule of forced call was starting the day at time and a half and staying that way until the crew has a proper rest period. I can not remember every getting a forced call but plenty of 10 hours turnarounds. When working local drive time is not part of the turnaround number.   I think the camera union only stays on a forced call until they reach what should be there turnaround time.  Which makes for some tired and grumpy AC's.  

 

I worked on a show a couple of years ago where the lead actor was in every scene.  We almost always got a 12 hour turnaround because of the actor turnaround, but 15-16 hours shooting days.  So every week ended watching the sun rise Saturday mourning and every week started watching the sun rise with a nice early call time.  

 

Brian 

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Adding to Chris Bollards statement about here in Aus, the person who makes the decision of breaking the 10hr turnaround is personally held liable should anything happen. I've bought this up with a few production managers, and the call time got pushed back very quickly

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Key portion of the producers jargon..... 

 

 

"But i was promised by the producer on the phone that it was highly unlikely we would go over 12."

 

Highly unlikely...... Hows that for an open ended statement...?

 

Only you can save or protect you.... Unfortunatly more people will have to die before there is movement on this front... 

 

  I personally think this is how it should be approached... as a safety concern. It should be stated outloud in front of a few people and in writing, that this is a safety concern and the calls need to be pushed, and that injuries or death may be the outcome of tired workers driving after long days without proper rest. Once this is on the record, things should be different...

 

 The Key Grip, DP, Mixer, Gaffer and a few others need to stand together on this issue.... period. Failure to stop this crap will result in loss of life to a crewmember or a bystander having nothing to do with this foolishness...

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The advantage of your non-union situation is that if the crew in consensus approaches the producer to negotiate, you can. 

 

One non-union crew sent a rep X hours into the day after a couple of 14's and told them that today, they would pull the plug at 14 and they did. You have that advantage if they are abusing the crew. 

 

Stand together.

 

Make 'em a reasonable offer.

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In USA, whatever rules there are apply to employees, not contractors.

 

This is sadly true. And even when you're technically employees for large corporations, I have witnessed situations where they've pressured the employees not to demand meal penalties, turnaround time, and so on. 1.5X and 2X they would grudgingly pay. 

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