Any suggestion on how to move entire scenes frame accurately in PT10?

[jgbsound]

So I've been working on a feature that had been print locked for a while now, and they decided to cut one entire scene (let's call this SceneA) and then, move another scene (SceneB  from a different location to plug the hole where Scene A was. 

 

I asked for the In/out points on the timeline and the order (sequence) in which they made these moves. I'm assuming the timeline (frames) will shift when they delete Scene A, and again, when they Cut and move Scene B, so the exact IO points will be necessary in order to replicate what they did.  

 

Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?  Ideally I'd like PT10 to behave more like a non-linear editor -- in mark/out, then select the range, then use the shuffle mode to just scoot stuff around.  

 

I have the tracks Grouped According to stems: (Dx, ADR, SFX, Mx and their AUX's too) so if I  select all the track groups,  I'm assuming that moving everything will move including my automation?

 

How do you do this?

 

Any advice would be truly appreciated!

[soundtrane]

old, new pic EDLs and Virtual Katy. 

[Jesse Flaitz]

I think you are talking about shifting your session due to edits in picture after you've begun work on it.  If there are only a couple changes I'll manually shift everything with automation following edit, syncing up to the new guide track.  If there are a lot of edits, then Virtual Katy or Titan work pretty well for resyncing edits.  The only main hiccup for Virtual Katy (and i believe titan as well, but I'm not sure) is if you are working with VFX shots.  Those programs are not very good at detecting changes in VFX shots and you will have to manually shift everything.

[jgbsound]

Thanks.  Actually it's a simple removal of one scene, then the cutting and pasting of a difference scene from another section of the movie.  There are some transition wipes SFX (it's a comedy) that happen between scenes that I'll have to deal with manually.  The edit (my edit) is already done and finalized.  

 

We're well into the post process so everything is in place, and pre-mix dialog, EQing, verbs, etc have already been put in place.

 

The actual movement of region data in the tracks seems pretty straight forward.  

 

My biggest concern is the movement of my automation.  All the automation sits in the AUX track (for example, all the dialog tracks are bussed to the DxAUX.  This has all my EQing, Altiverb, etc in it).  If I include the AUX track in my move (done by selecting the group), will the automation move with it or is there something special I have to do to get all my automation data to move? 

[Wandering Ear]

You should use the "ALL" group and a shuffle or slip edit.

[Jesse Flaitz]

I'm fairly certain this is where "automation follows edit" comes into play.  It's been a while since i did that, but all automation should still be in place when you make the edit.  If you are not sure, just save a new session and try it out.

[Marc Wielage]

Yep. My issue was always remembering to copy the cue marks when doing a massive slip or slide. And be sure to copy the session before making a destructive move, lest disaster follow.

 

I had a big argument with a post person on my last feature who didn't see the need to cut everything down to 20-minute reels, because "there are no more film reels nowadays." I gave them a good list of reasons to do so:

 

1) if last-minute changes are made, it's easier for the Pro Tools editor/mixer to deal with a 20-minute reel than a 2-hour feature

 

2) some reels get finished sooner than others, so it allows the post people to work on later reels before earlier reels, completing the movie out of order.

 

3) color-correction sessions are overwhelmed with reels longer than 20-30 minutes, especially if the number of scenes ("events") goes up over 1500-2000 cuts

 

4) once everything is absolutely, finally locked and you're very close to delivering, then you can create a "super session" and have all of the movie in one big file if you really want to.

 

Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I do think this workflow method helps. I even like catching a breath inbetween reels. Systems like Virtual Katy can also do magic in last-minute re-edits, though it's not inexpensive:

 

http://www.virtualkaty.com/

 

They do offer short-term licensing plans so you can pay for it just during a particular project, then not have to pay once the edit is finished.

[Wandering Ear]

+1 to Marc

Reels are great to work with, I like to conform into one session for the final mix personally, but not before that.

[Henchman]

Create big region groups, and move them.but "automation follows edit" isn't enough. You also have to change another parameter, which. Can check on tomorrow. Otherwise underlying automation on auxes etc will NOT move.

We had this happen once, and figured out "automation follows edit" wasn't enough.

[jgbsound]

thanks Henchman, not in any hurry yet. Ill keep doing fixes to other parts as I'm prepping for the final layback. I think I'll save a tester and just do it and see what happens.

But if there is a parameter to set prior to moving stuff I'd certainly like to know about it.

And thank you all for your input(s). If you think of anything more keep 'em coming. More info is better than pounding my head on the edge of the desk after :-)

J

[Wandering Ear]

If the aux tracks are included in your selection on the time line, the automation will move with the regions. I believe the "all" group will include the aux's, and your automation should moved just fine.

[Henchman]

If the aux tracks are included in your selection on the time line, the automation will move with the regions. I believe the "all" group will include the aux's, and your automation should moved just fine.

To make sure all information, including information on aux tracks, you need to do the following:

You need to make a group and include everything that needs to move with the

region (aux tracks, cedar, whatever contains automation that pertains to

that region). Go to the modify pane for that group and check all the boxes

so every parameter is selected. If you hold option while checking the boxes

each row will get checked at once. Then make sure auto follows edit is on.

[ccsnd]

To make sure all information, including information on aux tracks, you need to do the following:

You need to make a group and include everything that needs to move with the

region (aux tracks, cedar, whatever contains automation that pertains to

that region). Go to the modify pane for that group and check all the boxes

so every parameter is selected. If you hold option while checking the boxes

each row will get checked at once. Then make sure auto follows edit is on.

[jgbsound]

Got it! Thanks everybody :-)

[Ze Frias]

Yep. My issue was always remembering to copy the cue marks when doing a massive slip or slide. And be sure to copy the session before making a destructive move, lest disaster follow.

 

I had a big argument with a post person on my last feature who didn't see the need to cut everything down to 20-minute reels, because "there are no more film reels nowadays." I gave them a good list of reasons to do so:

 

1) if last-minute changes are made, it's easier for the Pro Tools editor/mixer to deal with a 20-minute reel than a 2-hour feature

 

2) some reels get finished sooner than others, so it allows the post people to work on later reels before earlier reels, completing the movie out of order.

 

3) color-correction sessions are overwhelmed with reels longer than 20-30 minutes, especially if the number of scenes ("events") goes up over 1500-2000 cuts

 

4) once everything is absolutely, finally locked and you're very close to delivering, then you can create a "super session" and have all of the movie in one big file if you really want to.

 

Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I do think this workflow method helps. I even like catching a breath inbetween reels. Systems like Virtual Katy can also do magic in last-minute re-edits, though it's not inexpensive:

 

http://www.virtualkaty.com/

 

They do offer short-term licensing plans so you can pay for it just during a particular project, then not have to pay once the edit is finished.

+1 on working with reels! Conforming is much easier done when using reels.

[soundtrane]

Marc, on my recent sound post project - the editor decided to send me QT movs without timecode burned in. I asked for it and got it. Then he sent me non-standard timecode positions. Reel start is not at XX:59:50:00. I asked for this and was told 'there's no standard." I had to get into an argument with this moron picture editor without ever wanting to, and then eventually spoke to the director... Now the director tells me 'of course, there is no standard, i have done my last X projects without timecode, etc etc". I had to tell him - "look, the fact that you have managed to do your past projects non-standard is just because of pure luck or in the back-end sound department has struggled to fix things. So either you follow standards which i am going to SPELL OUT to your editor, or you'll have to call the editor to fix any anomalies with sync and other stuff later. I won't take any responsibility for this..." Eventually - the picture came back with time code in place. Of course, i had to send the editor a hand-holding 001 document spelling out exactly how SMPTE time code has to be placed on video. (This was through the director - i would not speak to him unless i met the guy in person sometime). 

 

That evening, after my 'chat' with the editor and then the director, i felt VERY depressed. It was as if -i- was the one at fault for asking for the right thing. Oh man, i felt really down. But then - as you can see - i am well and able...

 

-vin

[Marc Wielage]

Vin, you were right. All we can do is make an attempt to educate people as best we can. All I can suggest is at the start of the project, have a meeting that says, "we need to establish a workflow for camera, sound, and post so that we're all following the same procedure," and then write it down and get it out in email. Whether or not they want to do it isn't as important as getting them to agree to do it.

 

There may be a way to calmly say, "if the work is given to me this way, it will save you time and money." At least you persevered and eventually got what you needed. I wouldn't be depressed -- maybe they'll at least think about this next time and your comments will have helped them in some way for their next project. 

[franky03]

Hi,

One trick we use at our place is this:

Ask the video editor to put a video layer (like an empty color correction layer) on top of everything and from start to finish BEFORE he does his changes.

When the edits are done, he can give you an edl of those changes.

I then usually conform everything by copying (not sliping or cutting), like this: i will redefine the TC start position (say start tc is 1h, ill change it to 2h). I follow the edl ins and outs (except theyre offsetted by an hour), make my selection (ex: 2;00;00;00 to 2;00;39;12), copy it to 1;00;00;00. And then move to the next edit...

I like this methodology because i can always go back to the original and compare the scene changes etc...

Of course the session becomes heavy(!) And when you are done and satisfied, delete the original offsetted clips.

My very humble 0.02$

Ps: <save as> are your friends!

Franky