Richard Ragon Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 I've been working on this higher budget short film, that's filled with many students. Most of these students are wana-be film producers themselves.. So, as you can imagine, many have been coming over to my cart, and asking lots of questions.. most about cost and such. To my shock, many newbie producers are just giving me some real horror stories out there, involving sound mixers. Apparently, a whole lot of (i call them people) are posing as 'sound mixers', and going out on jobs.. They show up to the set (or sometimes not), with only a zoom and a boom, and just do a shit job. This is why you see those 100/day sound jobs, because people are taking them, so producers think that's the going rates. Anyway, because of the nature of sound on set, these producers don't know they have been 'taken' until they get into post. After the shoot, these 'people', hold all their sound files, asking for hundreds more a day. Once the producer pays them, they get the work, and discover it's nearly unusable. I know these are only students, but they don't deserve to be ripped off like this, and this only serves damage to our profession. Its too bad we can't organize ourselves, to combat this at lower levels, when young impressionable minds work with us for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 On one hand the people accepting those jobs and saying they are qualified sound mixers are at fault. However, on the other hand, it is also the responsibility of the producers to know who and what they are hiring. An experienced producer should realize that someone accepting a sound mixing position for $100/day isn't going to yield a quality product. I've been amazed at the number of line producers or other general producers who have absolutely no clue what questions they should be asking me. Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials. www.matthewfreed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Two months ago I had a conversetion with a young line producer. She tells me about the deferred payment method will be the future. I explained about the sound investement and quality. How cost. Why these equipment. Why that workflow. "I am not in position to make 25.000€ minimum sound investment, to give you the best available equipment in Greece and Thessaloniki, project by project to increase my sound mixing skills and you give me/ask me for deferred payment according with low rate." She understand now. I changed a little this women. But after this conversation, one question is on my head. What they doing in Universities/Schools/Colleges on financial production lessons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 The educators I know that are teaching film production do teach their students about proper budgeting. Whether it gets filed in the long-term memory of the student is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhobbit Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 That's taught in business classes, which involves math and a lot of people don't like to do math in school, but would rather just play with the equipment in the film classes. If you don't want a low GPA because you don't do well in math and business classes, you skip those classes to be able to say you graduated from film school with a higher GPA. Scott.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 ...If you don't want a low GPA because you don't do well in math and business classes, you skip those classes to be able to say you graduated from film school with a higher GPA. Scott.... Not really. I graduated with honors, and was elected to Phi Bet Kappa precisely because I took math, physics, and a foreign language as electives. The GRE, which graduate schools require for entrance, had to be prepared for just like the SAT. Once in film school however, the only grade we cared about was the minimal B to stay in the program. It's funny how every time we encounter a slacker, flunky, or low-baller, we blame "film school" and those bloody "students" for scuttling this otherwise fine business we call "Show". It's way more complex than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhobbit Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Can't really use a wide brush on some subjects. There are all types in this business. How each one came to this field is different. Some are A students and other's D. We just have to work with them. A doctor is still a doctor whether they were straight A's or all c's. Scott..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Well, Ive been mixing some of the AFi student shorts. And I have to say, overall. The sound mixing on them has been from good to great. So I've been quiet happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Karlsson Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 An experienced producer should realize that someone accepting a sound mixing position for $100/day isn't going to yield a quality product. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Well, Ive been mixing some of the AFi student shorts. And I have to say, overall. The sound mixing on them has been from good to great. So I've been quiet happy. I had a teaching colleague tell me the AFI thesis films dont get green lit until they show they have the budget for post-production sound. Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Pert Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I have heard that most of the AFI films are mixed by an experienced and semi-retired mixer whose name escapes me now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Can't really use a wide brush on some subjects. There are all types in this business. How each one came to this field is different. Some are A students and other's D. We just have to work with them. A doctor is still a doctor whether they were straight A's or all c's. Scott..... .. but if they are not a doctor, practicing medicine, what would you call them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I heard Richard Portman who teaches at the Florida State University in Tallahassee, Florida, fails students if they have to do ADR for their class project. Excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I heard Richard Portman who teaches at the Florida State University in Tallahassee, Florida, fails students if they have to do ADR for their class project. Excellent. Like. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I've been working on this higher budget short film, that's filled with many students. Most of these students are wana-be film producers themselves.. So, as you can imagine, many have been coming over to my cart, and asking lots of questions.. most about cost and such. To my shock, many newbie producers are just giving me some real horror stories out there, involving sound mixers. Apparently, a whole lot of (i call them people) are posing as 'sound mixers', and going out on jobs.. They show up to the set (or sometimes not), with only a zoom and a boom, and just do a shit job. This is why you see those 100/day sound jobs, because people are taking them, so producers think that's the going rates. Anyway, because of the nature of sound on set, these producers don't know they have been 'taken' until they get into post. After the shoot, these 'people', hold all their sound files, asking for hundreds more a day. Once the producer pays them, they get the work, and discover it's nearly unusable. I know these are only students, but they don't deserve to be ripped off like this, and this only serves damage to our profession. Its too bad we can't organize ourselves, to combat this at lower levels, when young impressionable minds work with us for the first time. Sorry, But this is squarely on the backs of the "Producers"... They SHOULD know better.... IF they are Producers.... If not, as in this case, this is a valuable learning situation for them.... AS WE KNOW!! ANY DECENT producer will somehow VET the prospective Sound Mixer SOMEHOW.... References, referrals, reputation, interview, Resume... on and on... Failure to adhere to basic common sense will in fact lead to a guy showing up with little to "0" experience.... It IS their specific job to do just this... Figure out if the person can do the job at hand and take care of business... and in the end leave them with some sound they can work with... at an agreed rate, whatever that may be.. and get them paid.... This is how it is supposed to work... This is the first thing they should learn as Producer students... IMHO .....Especially when money is at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I have to agree with AFMY, and will add that as in so many other arenas, there are multiple levels of "playing fields". (In this stuff typically related to budgets)... A friend was asking me what book are "they" getting their budget numbers from.? and that, too depends on what field (level) they are playing on... another place you can easily see this is catering (and "craft services") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 If you can't even afford a decent mixer, you shouldn't even be making movies. The cost of a decent mixer is such a drop in the bucket of any production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Good story- good script, some decent actors, good DP and a good sound mixer....... go make something.... For any super basic project... this should be your base... The mixer is just one important piece of the pie... sure there are others... but this base is just that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Good story- good script, some decent actors, good DP and a good sound mixer....... go make something.... For any super basic project... this should be your base... The mixer is just one important piece of the pie... sure there are others... but this base is just that... With the proviso of food. If you're asking people to work below their rate, for long hours without overtime, and with the lack of support that accompanies a skeletal crew, you absolutely HAVE TO feed them well; NO exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 With the proviso of food. If you're asking people to work below their rate, for long hours without overtime, and with the lack of support that accompanies a skeletal crew, you absolutely HAVE TO feed them well; NO exceptions. Abasolutely. Feed them something half decent. Although I read that Kraft services on American Graffitti was 1 donut per person. And that included the actors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Just been doing some ADR on a documentary series that I did not record. Producer/Director shot the 5 eps in 5 days Guess they are 30 minutes I know the original sound guy who is skilled but under much time/location pressure Lesson is low budgets put us all under pressure and if things work against you speak up or be judged by your results mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 I'm thinking part of the problem is schools... however, I think the vast majority of the problem is 'shotcuts'.. Everyone claims, "I'm going to be a great director, so why do I need to know about sound. I'll hire someone for that.." People that are not educated about something, fall victim to it. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 I think that if Directors (Producers too) are not well educated in sound, especially on these low or no budget projects, they should kick down a few bucks and have the Sound Mixer present at at least one meeting so that his or her ideas and that of the mixers can be both addressed and adjusted. If this one thing took place, a huge amount of information could be exchanged. And, in an environment other than being on set and trying to sort through everyone's expectations and reality with little time or patience. This may also provide for a relaxed meet and greet well before production starts... Many times the Mixer meets the Director on the first day on these types of shows... with little time to bond or become friendly... don't underestimate this importance.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 " they should kick down a few bucks.. " you mean money ? what have you been smoking?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 I think that if Directors (Producers too) are not well educated in sound, especially on these low or no budget projects, they should kick down a few bucks and have the Sound Mixer present at at least one meeting so that his or her ideas and that of the mixers can be both addressed and adjusted. If this one thing took place, a huge amount of information could be exchanged. And, in an environment other than being on set and trying to sort through everyone's expectations and reality with little time or patience. This may also provide for a relaxed meet and greet well before production starts... Many times the Mixer meets the Director on the first day on these types of shows... with little time to bond or become friendly... don't underestimate this importance.. When the case arises where I will be working with a new client for either a feature or series, we usually have a small meet and greet. For free. Also, when we have to 4 wall a studio elsewhere, I always set up time well before the mix, to go over, check out the layout, and install my personal plugins. I never ever ever just show up day of the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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