Experience with TC over wireless only

[mulluysavage]

Ambient, TC Buddy, Zaxcom all make systems with a wireless only time code feature: that is, systems that ride on the cameras that don't have generators in them themselves to keep TC synched. These are less expensive, but how reliable are they? If a camera goes out of range of the tx for example, and changes battery or re-boots there, your box isn't really able to do it's job, right? I shot in Times Square the other day with 2 F3s, how would I know my system is working, and not getting mashed by some rogue signal? I'm really comfy with boxes with generators on cameras - set it and forget it. These wireless-only receivers are much cheaper though, so it's tempting. What are people's real-world experiences with these systems?

[afewmoreyears]

You get what you pay for....  what more can you say... there's always Pro Sound Rental in that case... at a few bucks a day, I would go the way of the proper gear over "cheaper".... Buy what you can,  and the best you can afford...and when in need, when you think your budget gear may not cut it, rent what will perform best on the set... It's your reputation... protect it...  Your job is to get the job done right, if that means renting a few things ... do it.

[Philip Perkins]

The TC Bud and Zax systems are TC xtal gens, so they keep counting from wherever they lost your signal.  Another way to go is the old reliable Lockit, which doesn't need an incoming signal once it's been jammed.  Any of these will work fine.

 

philp

[glenn]

The Zaxcom ERX2TCD will run for about 12 hours on 2 AA batteries. It will keep code within 1/100 of a frame when in range and seamlessly resync when it needs to.

 

It of course will receive scratch track audio as well.

 

Glenn

[mulluysavage]

The Zaxcom ERX2TCD will run for about 12 hours on 2 AA batteries. It will keep code within 1/100 of a frame when in range and seamlessly resync when it needs to.

 

It of course will receive scratch track audio as well.

 

Glenn

But my question is, does anyone have any real life experience with non-gen receivers? The erx2tcd is 600$ and the ambient tx/rx is 349$.

[Rainier Davenport]

Hello, I was in a similar situation to yours with wireless T/C. I still use the older 'Blackbox Series' Ambient Wireless Timecode Slates which still work very well for their age. I also bought a 'Blackbox Series 'T/C receiver which I used to attach to the camera, so it was jammed from a wireless T/C signal. That used to work OK for small shoots, but like your Times Square experience, if the camera went too far away the T/C signal would fail. I also experienced signal interference, as unknown to me the T/C slate was on an improper frequency. After changing the frequency, I didn't have any problems, but I decided to buy two Ambient 203 Lockit Boxes which were going cheap as the new 204 Lockits were about to be released. I now have two Ambient 203 Lockits as part of my kit for challenging RF environments and I often turn off the wireless T/C on the slates and Jam instead. That said, I have found I don't really use the Lockit boxes as much as I thought I would, and have not actually attached them to a camera yet. The reason is I work with the Alexa most of the time and I Jam one Lockit which I keep with me to refresh the Alexa with T/C if off speed frame rates are used. I think purchasing a Lockit box or two might be the cheapest method to solve your wireless T/C problems.

[Philip Perkins]

But my question is, does anyone have any real life experience with non-gen receivers? The erx2tcd is 600$ and the ambient tx/rx is 349$.

I used to use a wireless mic for TC, but from the camera to me, not the other way around.  Mostly it worked fine, partly because the recorder I was using then (HDP2) would "flywheel" over fairly long breaks in incoming TC.  Most of those shoots were on a stage so range wasn't an issue.  But for outdoors and RF-hostile environments I would not recommend this approach.  I would also not ever want to be the source of TC transmitted to camera unless the receiver on the camera end was also an accurate TC gen.  Too risky without that backup--better to forget TC and use some kind of audible/visible start mark with everyone on their own TC than to risk having a camera file with bad or missing TC.

 

philp 

[studiomprd]

" how reliable are they?" 

it depends

" If a camera goes out of range of the tx for example, and changes battery or re-boots there, your box isn't really able to do it's job, right? "

right.

 

" But my question is, does anyone have any real life experience with non-gen receivers? "

yes

I've had plenty  (waaaaaay back, I used comtek's)

[mulluysavage]

yes

I've had plenty  (waaaaaay back, I used comtek's)

Cool, Bro!

[VASI]

Gotham Sound has a video about the range of ACL 204 Lockit (in first "steps" of the ACL 204).

 

[Cloud Wang]

But my question is, does anyone have any real life experience with non-gen receivers? The erx2tcd is 600$ and the ambient tx/rx is 349$.

 

Glenn already told you, WHEN IN RANGE

[Constantin]

I'm currently using the ERX2TCD for the first time on my current project, now in its seventh week. It works very well. I have my recorder's TC set to 24h so it will sync to its own clock on boot. The TC out goes to an IFB100 and this transmits TC as well as audio to the camera. It's very easy to set up and I don't have to worry about re-syncing as the system is doing that itself all the time. I just check the receiver sometimes. The camera crew loves it too, because it's just one small box and with lithium batteries we can go almost two days without a battery change. Should the camera be out of range, the ERX will keep generating TC on its own.

So far, no complaints

[RadoStefanov]

Glenn already told you, WHEN IN RANGE

Erx tcd holds sync for a long time when not in range. I have tried as much as 4.5 hours . It has a lot more options like adjustable delay, tone filter so you don't blast it in clients ears, adjustable voltage for TC which is a must have for red cameras and a lot more...

[Cloud Wang]

I only use ERX when i know it's IN RANGE. Otherwise lockit. I agree the rest of your opinion.

 

Erx tcd holds sync for a long time when not in range. I have tried as much as 4.5 hours . It has a lot more options like adjustable delay, tone filter so you don't blast it in clients ears, adjustable voltage for TC which is a must have for red cameras and a lot more...

[John Blankenship]

I, too, have used a Comtek link in the past. I still have it as an option but usually only deploy it for special circumstances such as music videos.

Newcomers may not know this but the Denecke TS/Comtek 72 combination were designed to work in consort. The Comtek PR72 receiver remains off until you open the sticks, at which time it turns on and sends incoming code to the slate. As long as the numbers are running at the point when the slate is clapped, you have good time code. The system actually works quite well.

For me in recent years, its main use has been for music videos where time code is not free running but rather is coming from a track alongside the music.

[Christian Spaeth]

The small cheap Ambient Tx/Rx doesn't generate TC. It just transmits it, like any audio Tx/Rx would. That means when out of range there is no TC fed to the camera: Had some nasty problems because of that. Some cameras don't tae lightly on that kind of thing. ERX, as others explained, do generate TC, so the camera is constantly fed, in or out of range.

[Constantin]

So what is actually the point of the Ambient wireless TC system, then? You might as well use a cheap wireless system.

[RadoStefanov]

I only use ERX when i know it's IN RANGE. Otherwise lockit. I agree the rest of your opinion.

have you experienced drifts when not in range?

[VASI]

How much range Christian?

[Boomboom]

So what is actually the point of the Ambient wireless TC system, then? You might as well use a cheap wireless system.

There's two systems, don't confuse them.

The ACN system is the latest one and units generate TC internally once jammed wirelessly.

The oldest system is the one described above.

[Constantin]

There's two systems, don't confuse them.

The ACN system is the latest one and units generate TC internally once jammed wirelessly.

The oldest system is the one described above.

To rephrase then, what is the point of Ambient system as described by Christian above?

[Allen Green]

I just ordered the Zaxcom Camera Link and QRX 100 with IFB/TC option. Going to be on a job for couple of months with multi track on 664 and sending timecode  and camera hop to XD cam.  The job doesn't start until Sept. 7 So will report to you how it works out. Just the little research I've done it seems to be pretty solid, but I do have a box to hang off of the camera if the Zax goes south. As I said I'll keep you guys posted.

[Boomboom]

To rephrase then, what is the point of Ambient system as described by Christian above?

I think it could be mainly price ?

Only Christian could tell

I made this precision regarding the two systems as for a moment in time I was confused a little and thought their older system was compatible with the ACN system but contacting Ambient made things clear at that time... Was just passing the info Constantin

[Tom Conen]

So what is actually the point of the Ambient wireless TC system, then? You might as well use a cheap wireless system.

 

Hi Constantin!

 

A timecode signal is a complex signal that is hard for wireless systems to reproduce.

 

Here you can see a waveform of a proper timecode signal (generated by an Ambient ACL203, Lockit):

 

And after being send by a 1000 USD wireless system:

 

Some cameras (and other timecode reader) do have problems to read such a signal (2nd picture). 

 

The Ambient TC-TRX is designed to reproduce a proper square signal (1st picture) to minimize reading errors.

 

Other benefits of the TC-TRX over "cheap wireless systems":

- cheaper than "cheap wireless systems" (less than 350 USD for 2 transceivers)

- low power consumption (+100 hours with 2 AA batteries)

- transceiver system (to change master/slave without swapping TX/RX-units)

 

Best,

Tom

[Constantin]

Hi Tom,

Yes, I know about the TC waveforms. It's just, what I was originally getting at (and probably should have stated) I have frequently been using Sennheiser G2/G3 systems to various cameras, always without any problem. Those are not really cheap, but cheap. While they are more expensive than the cheap (I should sa low cost) Ambient system, they can always be re-purposed to any of the other functions that they were designed for. Battery life has never been an issue, they last a day with good rechargeables. Plus many have the Sennheiser around the house anyway.

If you buy a system new, I'd say it should always include a TC gen