Jump to content

Are ISOs taking away our creative input?


Diego Sanchez

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I'm starting a feature in a month. In a recent meeting re sound work flow with the sound designer, the dialogue editor, the picture editor and myself i came across the following that surprised me a little and to be hones upset me abit.

The sound post people wanted to see if the editor could cut the picture with all the ISOs so they wouldn't have to reconform after. That I understand as it would save time, specially as this is not a big budget project and they don't have an assistant. But when enquiring why they wanted all the ISOs present in every take, bot the dialogue editor and the sound designer confirmed to me that they wouldn't be using my mix at all, that they will start from scratch from the ISOs. They also said that this is the standard practice (at least in the UK) and this guys have work with some big sound people and in big films.

 

What surprised me is that they are prepared to re-do a job i will be already doing, without even considering hearing it first. I know that because of our 'live' situation sometimes some takes are not 100%, but to scratch it all from start seems a little wasteful and maybe, disrespectful.

Not so long ago, when there was not such thing as ISOs, we would mix as many channels as needed down to a stereo or even a mono mix, and post would have to work with it. Sometimes it wasn't perfect, but that made us Production MIXERS, and made us become better at what we do.

 

I believe that now with the option of leaving all creative decisions to the last minute, we are getting the little creative input we have taken away from us. 

I don't know if this is the same in the states, but i believe we offer more that a purely technical service, and we can be part of this creative process we call film making. 

 

Or am I just a bit to idealistic?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

This has been discussed a lot and from many different points of view, here and everywhere, and there is no simple answer. In another thread, it was pointed out that picture editorial when presented with ISO tracks only (no mix track or a mix track that they have chosen to ignore) would find it very difficult and time consuming to even start the picture editing process. Think about it, let's say you're doing a scene with 4 people, all on wires on their own tracks, a boom mic on its own track, an open mic recording ambience and effects (minus dialog, a track which can be immensely useful to the sound editor) --- the picture editor (or an assistant) is going to have to do some sort of mix, at the very least they are going to have to dynamically mute certain tracks on the fly, before anyone will even be able to experience the scene as played on the day. What about dailies? What about the Producer's (who all want to see a finished product the day after shooting?).

 

The best practice, in my opinion, is to deliver a mix track (whether they want it or not) followed by all the sources (iso tracks) recorded (even though some of them may not even be in your mix). If this is a polyphonic file, editorial (all post people) WILL have all your tracks, in sync (no need to "conform" anything) and then they can do what they want with it all. The picture editor I can almost guarantee, will want to use your mix track and will mute everything else (but the "everything else" is still there and available). The sound editor will have everything also, and will add to that whatever NEW mixed tracks the picture editor has done, etc.

 

Now, I am making a few assumptions: it may be that this project doesn't do dailies, doesn't have a picture editorial department, an assistant editor, a post sound team, etc. Maybe it's just one guy doing it all on a laptop in a hotel room on location --- who knows!

 

As for the issue that our "creative input" is being compromised (or ignored) because our work has been reduced to that of "tracking" and not mixing, this is a whole other topic which has been discussed over and over again. For me personally, I will continue to work the way I have for the last 43 years: record and mix the sound that is needed for the shot (the picture) that is being done, the sound that will contribute the most value to the scene, providing for post as much flexibility as possible for them to do their work. When I started out, this was mixing one or two microphones to one track to provide the sound for one shot being done by one camera. Quite a lot simpler than today's work. Now, it is easier, in some respects, because we have easy and reliable multitrack, we can concentrate on our mix but also deliver to post all the sources that went into that mix. What has NOT gotten simpler (in fact it has gotten very complicated and out of control) is the demand on the production sound mixer to record (and mix?) multiple sources to provide appropriate and useful sound for multiple images.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeff delivers on every point I could think about, and beyond.

 

As Jon pointed out, you had a meeting, and that is extremely valuable. Ultimately, you are being hired to do a job. If they want ISOs and if they want to re-mix all from scratch that is up to them. Knowing this is the desired workflow avoids issues down the road.

 

But like Jeff, I would still provide a mix track for editorial and dailies. Additionally, when dealing with ISOs such as stash / multiple booms that are mixed together in a certain way or in a particular order to create a cohesive scene, the MIX track will be far more valuable to post than the individual ingredients used. So, still do that mix!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh don't get me wrong Jeff and Jose, i will ALWAYS do and deliver a mix, even if they deleted or ignore it, i was just expressing my disappointment at the practice of simply ignoring our mix and starting from scratch, but what can you do?

You are right Jon, having a meeting was a great start and knowing the workflow will be vital to my job on set.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

As for the issue that our "creative input" is being compromised (or ignored)

 

Ask the writer who plants critical motivations in a script's lines, only to have the scene ad-libbed. Or deleted.

Ask the art director who designs a set for a particular point of view and then the director moves the camera.

Ask the actor whose performance is changed with editing. Or has the lines re-ordered. Or is totally eliminated from the scene.

Ask the editor whose first three versions are trashed by the director. 

Ask the sound effects editor who sees half their work muted out during the mix.

 

Ask brilliant composer Leonard Bernstein who wrote brilliant crescendos for emotional scenes in "Waterfront", only to have brilliant director Kazan pot them down to nothing in the mix. Okay, you can't ask him... but he wrote a fairly famous essay about it, and swore never to score a movie again.

 

It's natural for everyone on a movie to think their contribution is the best solution, and should be left unchanged in the final movie (one of Randy Thom's brilliant essays goes into this). Fact is, if they're good it very likely IS the best solution... at the time, under the circumstances, with the current stated goal.

 

But movies are both a collaboration - other craftspeople have a job to do later - and a living, changing thing whose immediate goals can shift. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do what you normally do... let them use what they want.... It's their film, not yours.... Don't worry too much about it.... Advise them and move on.... If it's a trend then so be it... It's our job to provide the elements as requested by them... if that were not the case they would be working for you....  I understand the FEELINGS regarding this and the emotion, but put it behind you and move on...  Just make sure all the ISOS are nice...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a post guy say the same, that they never ever used my mix track. Strange, I was watching a TV movie I mixed where an actor changed his actions and went way off mark and I was caught with a little phasing between the boom/lav. Funny, they seemed to have the same issue on their final mix! Fancy that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not the most experienced dialogue editor out there, but I've got a few feature/doc credits behind me.  First I would say that, while I would have the same request of the editor to sync the ISOs with the mix track so I don't have to do it on my end with Titan or manually,  I have used the Mix tracks quite frequently.

 

There can be a lot of problems with the mix track, and my guess is that this is simply a lack of a proper "sound mixer" doing the recording.  Phasing, missed lines and high noise floor are some of the issues I've run into very often on mix tracks which makes using the ISO tracks a much better decision.  I wouldn't take it personally, it's probably a request based on the previous experience of the sound editors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" seems a little wasteful and maybe, disrespectful. "

its a gig, don't take it personally (or don't take the gig!)

" am I just a bit to idealistic? "

"feature" or not: yes, and quite a bit...

 

Production Sound mixers are not hired for their creative input...

Jay, JW, and others have covered it well...

Edited by studiomprd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jay, excellent point of view.

Diego, if the post folks have nothing better to do with their time than to remix an entire movie from ISOs (they probably don't get paid for their time anyway like that) then let them do it. They might use this movie to get some mixing skills. They probably need them, otherwise they'd know better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

if the post folks have nothing better to do with their time than to remix an entire movie from ISOs

 

Okay, speaking as a post guy now and not as occasional author:

 

Of course I'm not going to remix an entire movie from ISOs. If the mixer was any good - and fortunately, virtually all of the projects I've worked on have had good mixers - I'll use their track as much as possible.

 

BUT...

 

There have been times when an edit has changed the focus of a scene, sometimes even cropping or painting out one character. 

There have been times when a director wanted to open up a step-on, or build a different one from two different takes.

There have been times a prop noise that might have been perfectly acceptable on the boom starts annoying the director.

There have even been tiny hits and noises that the mixer wasn't able to deal with, was overruled on, or possibly (very tiny ones) didn't notice in their 7506s under the pressure of a scene.

 

I don't think I've worked on a long form show that was recorded multichannel where I didn't use an ISO mic at least once, in one scene. To the extent that I've pawed through sound and camera logs and piles of production DVDs, and sync'd the scene by ear because slates and file names were long gone from the OMF... it was that important, in that particular case, to have the ISO.

 

And when I do grab an ISO, I use it as little as possible... sometimes subbing in just one or two syllables, if that's all we need to fix a problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In TV, our mix is often used, as it is on lower budget features.

Here's how I've recently come to look at it, after much self-centered grumbling along they way.

If you had your ISO tracks, and the opportunity to know which camera, which shot, and which take they were going to use, would you mix the scene the same way you did live without having that information? Do you believe that even with that information, your two or three "live" takes you hear through your headphones will be as good as getting dozens of tries at the same mix on a dub stage? Let's add the availability to pull a word from another take when a horn didn't honk and slip it into the take they want for picture/performance.

If you were a post mixer, and had the time and budget, wouldn't you pull the ISO's and try to do "better"? I would. Why not? Job security.

As said by others above, it's their movie. Deliver your best mix, given your circumstances. Take pride in your mix. It might very well be used. But give them what they need to make the movie sound good, even if it means they scrap your mix for something you don't like as much as what you did. Don't be arrogant. Be a team player.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Creative input is what other departments contribute to a film that messes up the sound. :)

Just kidding...mostly.

Having your mix dismissed out of hand is unfortunate. Those particular folks may have a lot of experience with poor production mixes. So, prove them wrong. Show them just how good you can mix so they don't have to re-do the work.

I very much appreciate iso tracks to save my own butt. While I like to think of myself as perfect (and my wife reminds me I'm not) I do make mistakes and don't always get the mix spot on. Iso tracks can save an otherwise fantastic take. As was mentioned above, it is a collaborative effort from beginning to end.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ISO's are here to stay. What else we going to do with all these tracks on our shiny new recorders?  All the mics used to create my mix are ISO'd. I enjoy this new aspect of recording dialog but I don't ever want to get into the workflow of wiring them all regardless of the shot like on a boomable interior shots just because someone down the line wants that option. If I get it in writing that that is the work flow then I will charge for all the wires and still make my mix w 1 or 2 booms.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have been over this a lot, and the iso thing isn't going away for sure.  I would say to the OP that the message about the irrelevance of your mix track was just what they said at THAT MEETING, and to not take it too seriously.  If you wanted to be a dick about it you could just not send them the mix track (that you'll do no matter what they say) and see how long it takes for someone to call and ask where it is.  And I bet that someone will be an underling in the post dept who suddenly finds that they don't have what they need for a temp or demo mix or something that has to be sent to the studio's PR or social media people etc etc etc..  They DO need the mix you are making, during the shot, later that day on the set,  later on in post; they just might not be planning on using it for the FINAL mix of the film.  But up to that point it will get plenty of use, believe me.   Also re the OP--I'm having trouble believing that the Big E picture editor is going to sit still for dragging 6, 8, 12 etc tracks of audio along while trying out scene cuts, esp with the director sitting on their shoulder.  It is a serious creative-drag and edit-room vibe-killer--really something an assistant should be doing after a reel is assembled.  In the meantime I bet they will want to fly along with just......YOUR MIX!

 

philp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+ 1, Crew.

I'm not going to wire everyone just in case it's what they might want, or to cover my ass.

This movie is "unpredictable" regarding coverage (not performance), so I have covered myself in ways I might not ordinarily do.

Oddly, our lead actress made a comment day one about how she'll ADR the whole movie, because she couldn't understand how we were recording her, if not with a lav. And she also wouldn't do wild lines on a scene with some very noisy BG (which went away after we shot her side) because she said, "Won't we just do that in ADR?" My boom op explained it might keep her out of ADR to grab the opening lines for the wide. She didn't understand, and there was no time to explain. This is a regularly working actress, albeit typically on ad-libby movies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...