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Catastrophic fail with BR and Yamaha..


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Greetings everyone,

 

I had a Catastrophic fail on my Boom Recorder and Yamaha 01v96i fail last week, and I can't even begin to diagnose the troubles.

 

First hour on set for the day, no troubles, no issues, everything working fine.

 

Hour 3 now, and I noticed the Time Code on BR, going on and off once.  So, I check the ISOs, and there is some distortion on the files.

 

By Hour 5, I noticed the TC now just completely off and not being read by BR.  So, I check the ISOs, and there's a lot more distortion now..  degrading as time goes by.  I had to crap can the whole RB set up, and scramble to get a 788 put in place instead.

 

Here's a sample file.  I edited and saved as mp3, because the 6 track wavs are just too large.

 

http://deepmagicstudios.com/downloads/14D-3.mp3

 

I can't even begin to isolate the trouble. I haven't had time to set up my BR to try and re-create.  And, this is a very intermittent problem, so I might not even be able to re-create it again..

 

I love the BR, but if it doesn't work, I'm just going to have to go a different route now.

 

-Richard

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Bummer. Intermittent problems like this are always the most difficult to diagnose -- they can drive a person mad. I had issues with my Metacorder setup recently where I went so far as to replace the MacMini and the 828mkII... (both units were aging a bit, and I was at the end of my rope trying to figure out why this particular frame-rate anomaly kept surfacing -- I didn't know what else to do.)

I went with a brand new Mac Mini, a brand new 828mkIII, and (of course) was using the latest version of Metacorder at the time... everything worked fine, problem solved... but get this -- I went back to the earlier MacMini & 828mkII, and it too worked fine! I haven't been able to replicate the problem since. Ugh.

This is the nature of complicated electronic systems -- I swear by my Metacorder setup, but always roll a backup (I know there was a recent thread discussing the need - or lack thereof - for backups)... you just never know.

Richard, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. : (

~tt

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I don't think your problem is in BR, but in the console and its clocking.  As you've prob. thought of, try a test record with just the laptop+BR using the laptops's inputs, to make sure that your computer is cool.  I assume that the analog outs of the Yam are ok?  That leaves the Yam-computer interface, maybe see if you can rent or borrow that card for a test.  Serious bummer, all of it

 

philp

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A different USB cable?  Can do.  Also, I just bought a new Dante card for the Yamaha.  I was going to try some test with that interface (Eithernet).

 

#1 suspect is the Yamaha Digital to USB converter.  Something in the hardware electronics (deep).

 

#2 suspect is the laptop.  Althought I literely, have NOT updated anything on this unit and it is dedicated to the system.  I was going to possiable try another recording program (while it happens), or try another mac.. see the results.

 

Thanks

-Richard

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" Catastrophic fail on my Boom Recorder and Yamaha 01v96i fail last week, "

CRAP happens.

guess this is why so many of us are still concerned with backups and plan B's...

 

" I haven't been able to replicate the problem since. Ugh. "

CRAP happens...

 

" Also, I just bought a new Dante card for the Yamaha. "

and installed it..?

 

basic troubleshooting 101 is still called for...

Edited by studiomprd
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Greetings everyone,

 

I had a Catastrophic fail on my Boom Recorder and Yamaha 01v96i fail last week, and I can't even begin to diagnose the troubles.

 

First hour on set for the day, no troubles, no issues, everything working fine.

 

Hour 3 now, and I noticed the Time Code on BR, going on and off once.  So, I check the ISOs, and there is some distortion on the files.

 

By Hour 5, I noticed the TC now just completely off and not being read by BR.  So, I check the ISOs, and there's a lot more distortion now..  degrading as time goes by.  I had to crap can the whole RB set up, and scramble to get a 788 put in place instead.

 

Here's a sample file.  I edited and saved as mp3, because the 6 track wavs are just too large.

 

http://deepmagicstudios.com/downloads/14D-3.mp3

 

I can't even begin to isolate the trouble. I haven't had time to set up my BR to try and re-create.  And, this is a very intermittent problem, so I might not even be able to re-create it again..

 

I love the BR, but if it doesn't work, I'm just going to have to go a different route now.

 

-Richard

This is exactly why I would PREFER NOT to use BR for any important work....   I don't know what else to say...  I do own BR, and I have used it... but for me, it is NOT the proper tool for the job...  Any of our recorders could be problematic, but I think less so...

  I try to use the best tool or at least one of them, and I don't see BR as being one of them...

 

  I wish I could help, but I always ran my outs from my Yamaha Analog... then into my recorders...  hope you get it all fixed up....  sorry you had the issues..  that's no fun...

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To better help you to trouble shoot your problem, it would be very helpful if you gave a more detailed description of your input and output routing and how you have your Yamaha setup.

 

Yes, I understand you were using the USB cable to interface with your Mac. What is your time code source? Did you check to see if you accidently changed the Hardware Sample rate on BR, or the Time Code frame rate? Did you make sure that the Yamaha sample rate was correct? Were there any warnings on the Yamaha from the DIO settings.

 

When you put the SD 788T into your chain, was this also AES out of the Yamaha?

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Greeetings Everyone (Richard Lightstone),

 

 

Let me see if I can address all these questions..

 

-  internal routes in the Yamaha are set to 'DIRECT OUT' via each channel.  Direct outs pre fader via USB direct out.

 

-  TC source is my 744T, via into the Yamaha channel 13.  It's picked up by BR once you have 14 channels open.

 

-  WORD clock is also Master on 744T, out to the Yamaha in.  DIDO setting is WC external in.  (if I remove the master, I switches to INT WC source).

 

-  TC rate is 23.97 on the SD744T, and also set via BR on interface.  In fact, it's been a while since I've changed this, as nearly all of the gigs I've worked on for a while have been 23.97ND.  Pretty much 5Ds, Arri, and/or Reds.

 

-  Not sure where the 'yamaha sample rate' set up is located.. don't know what that is.  I think it's 48K, as on my BR settings.

 

-  No warnings on the Yamaha, everything looks happy.. you'll never even know theres any issues as it sounds awesome..  But when I review of the sound files, thats where the problems are.

 

-  I route SteroMix L/R to OMNI 1/2 to my 744T.

 

-  I route SteroMix L to OMNI 3 to go out IFB#1.

 

-  I route Aux1 (boom channel and slate mic channel) to OMNI 4 to go out to IFB#2 for my boom op.

 

I'm not using any compression, mixes, filters, or EQs.

 

I can spend some more time on this this weekend.. I'll re-set my cart up, and run some more test.  Are you busy this weekend? Fri?

 

Thanks

-Richard

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"Not sure where the 'yamaha sample rate' set up is located.. don't know what that is.  I think it's 48K, as on my BR settings."

That is in the DIO/SETUP, WORD CLOCK SELECT page. The Yamaha can clock internally at 44.1K, 48K, 88.2K and 96K. If you have connected WordClock In, it's vital you select that on the DIO page, otherwise the Yamaha will default to it's internal setting. I'm sure you check the gas gauge on your car occasionally, so why not the same on BR and the Yamaha.

 

post-273-0-21455800-1376353949_thumb.jpg

 

 

You should also check several boxes in the Preferences 1 page, especially, DIO WARNING

post-273-0-54315300-1376354015_thumb.jpg

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Yes, and be warned that wordclock in settings, sampling frequency, and bit depth are not memorized as part of the recall mode. You have to set those every time.

 

I got bit by that once or twice in setting up Yamaha 03D's and DM1000's back at Complete Post (with the internal YGDAI cards). Usually it gave me 10 minute of clicks, pops, and garbage, then I'd start going through the menus and just reset the Preference setup.  

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it is either a WC problem or a Core audio issue.  It almost sounds like your core audio buffer is too small and you are losing samples.

 

If you un-enable tracks, does the problem go away with less data being pushed?  If so, increase the buffer in core audio.

 

 

im almost 90% sure this is a core audio issue.

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Great to see that Take is here, once again.

I do have a question. Is it possible for BR to 'see' timecode if it were plugged into the "audio In" of the Mac?

I am asking this because Mr. Ragon has to use an audio input on his Yamaha console in order for him to route the time code signal to BR.

 

Best,

 

Richard L.

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Hello Richard,

 

It may be possible (not all CoreAudio drivers support this) to make an aggregate audio device from the Yamaha+Apple Buildin devices. You can make an aggregate device using the Audio MIDI Setup utility.

 

Boom Recorder can record and listen to timecode from an aggregate device.

 

However because the clocks of the Yamaha and the Build-in device are not in sync, one of the devices will need to be resampled to follow the other (the aggregate device will do this automatically) you will need to select the master device. I am not sure how well resampling works, it may cause weird problems.

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I've got some free time here from Fri - Sun, and I'm going to spend some time working on this..  And, answer some more questions here.

 

Also.. just an FYI, that I'm sure many of you guys know..  Once you 'tie' the yamaha to your mac, a lot of these settings can be changed via the MIDI setups on your MAC.  If you select  WC ext on your settings, it changes on the yamaha too.

 

-Richard

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I do have a question. Is it possible for BR to 'see' timecode if it were plugged into the "audio In" of the Mac?

 

I know this worked with Metacorder, since that was exactly how I set up this software when I used it on my Mac laptop. There was a drop-down menu specifying either a channel for timecode in or the external Mac analog audio input. I chose to do the latter, because I didn't like the idea of running actual timecode into the mixer per se, having had experience with crosstalk in the old analog days.

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I never had much luck aggregating the computer's audio input with an interface with Boom Recorder for the reasons Take outlined above. I also never had any issues with timecode bleed feeding a firewire interface from a mixer while only feeding timecode via the interface. Boom Recorder sees timecode fed at a minimal level and maintains sync if the timecode feed is removed as long as the interface stays locked to the same wordclock source as the timecode feed. 

 

None of this addresses Richard Ragon's problem. But Metacorder and Boom Recorder are different software packages with different capabilities, like Metacorder being able to see timecode that's input to a computer's analog audio input without creating an aggregated device. Boom Recorder has a different and very capable feature set. One of those features is price.

Best regards,

Jim

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Once again, not related to OP, but the Yamaha has a lot of channels, so TC into one at a level low enough for BR shouldn't be a big deal. And if you desperately need the channel, BR "jams" to your TC, so pull the TC feed and put your audio source there.

I'd still be using BR I hadn't been booked on a crazy location movie which made a smaller and dedicated 8-track recorder (788T) far more practical.

Robert

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