Sanken Cub for piano?

[Sound Art Film]

Any thoughts as to using the Sanken Cub as a mid-high frequency mic for piano?  I had a client ask last minute (tomorrow) for a grand piano recording, where I might be supplying the mics.  If I had more time (and more certainty about the shoot), i'd probably rent something like two Audix scx25a for the piano.

 

My plan right now is to bring an Audix 212B (low frequency strings) and a Sanken Cub or DPA 4060 (or pair of DPA 4060) [high frequency strings]. 

 

Any thoughts about using the Sanken Cub?  I know Alan Chang has used DPAs in the past with success, but I am curious to thoughts about the Cub. 

 

Cheers!

 

Paul

[Jack Norflus]

I tried both a CUB and a COS11 - I ended up using a COS-11 in side the piano attached to the lid. It was a live performance and we couldn't see any mics or cables it sounded fine - much better than a CUB

[Philip Perkins]

Didn't like CUB much myself on piano, open or closed; thin, odd sounding.   The DPAs are a way better idea, but you'll have to experiment (read compromise) on where they go.  I also encourage you to consider the piano sound as a totality, not "high and low".  One mic (or a coincident pair) in the right place is way better than multiple mics in not-great places mixed together.

 

philp

[Sound Art Film]

Thanks for all the great information Jack and Philip! 

[olphi]

+1 for the 4060!!!

[VASI]

Between Sanken CUB and DPA 4060, I will go for DPA.

[dolo72]

Another vote for the dpa and remove the cap.

[Jeff Wexler]

Rather small image, I know (but really small microphones also), DPAs routinely used to mic pianos. Very smooth frequency response, able to handle very high SPL.

 

[Sound Art Film]

Superb. Thanks to everyone for their input.

I'll probably go mono with a dpa inside the piano, and hidden on talent playing. Not a stead fast plan, but what I intend on doing. Thanks once again for everyone sharing their voice!

All the best,

Paul

[Wandering Ear]

+1 to what Phil said, the piano is a large and complex sound source, and needs to be recorded as such.

Also remember a lot of the acoustical energy is radiated by the sound board, not the strings.

[Jon Gilbert]

If you're renting, aim a little higher than Audix. Also, forget using different mics for different parts of the frequency spectrum. I see no benefit in doing that and a lot of problems. I used a pair of U87s recently with very very good results, they would be my first choice, but if you have DPA lavs, then they would be as good, still use two, a grand piano is a large instrument, and benefits from two mics. Also the MKH50 seems to be a popular choice, again in a pair. The use of a pair isn't only for stereo, it's to avoid over emphasis on any part of the piano.

[Jack Norflus]

a grand piano is a large instrument, and benefits from two mics.

I recently recorded a lot of piano for a doc I'm working on about Marvin Hamlish. I used several mics on the piano - but in my opinion the best sound came from a pair of Schoeps.

[Audio Daddyo]

Schoeps sound great useds on anything with strings.

[Bruce Watson]

I'm a novice when it comes to recording music, especially piano, so I'm looking for a little enlightenment. The concensus on this thread is to record piano from inside the piano, in what I think of as multiple mono (not going for any phase coherence). Doing this seems obvious to this group, but it's not obvious to me.

 

Mics inside the piano are recording something that no humans can hear. A piano is designed to be heard by an audience who are clearly not sitting inside the piano, but are instead at some distance. And in particular, at some distance to the player's right. So I'm curious why no one seems to think that recording from such a location, using, say, an ORTF stereo pair, wouldn't generally be preferable?

 

I understand the general principle of getting close to the sound source to increase S/N ratio (noise in this case being early reflections off nearby walls, etc.). That said, a piano is a very large source, and its sound is designed to be reflected off the lid and out into the audience. I would have thought that recording that reflection off the lid was an important part of capturing the real sound of the piano, at least as the audience perceives it.

 

So, please set a novice straight. What am I missing?

[VASI]

I'm a novice when it comes to recording music, especially piano, so I'm looking for a little enlightenment. The concensus on this thread is to record piano from inside the piano, in what I think of as multiple mono (not going for any phase coherence). Doing this seems obvious to this group, but it's not obvious to me.

 

Mics inside the piano are recording something that no humans can hear. A piano is designed to be heard by an audience who are clearly not sitting inside the piano, but are instead at some distance. And in particular, at some distance to the player's right. So I'm curious why no one seems to think that recording from such a location, using, say, an ORTF stereo pair, wouldn't generally be preferable?

 

I understand the general principle of getting close to the sound source to increase S/N ratio (noise in this case being early reflections off nearby walls, etc.). That said, a piano is a very large source, and its sound is designed to be reflected off the lid and out into the audience. I would have thought that recording that reflection off the lid was an important part of capturing the real sound of the piano, at least as the audience perceives it.

 

So, please set a novice straight. What am I missing?

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/recpiano.htm

 

Little idea.

[Jon Gilbert]

I didn't have a pair of Schoeps to hand Jack, but I'm pretty confident that if I had they'd have done a very good job, I used U87s as I know them well, I travelled to Milan to film an interview and performance with Ludovico Einaudi  in a derelict Italian villa, and  knew the U87s would deliver what I wanted.

 

Bruce, you're missing nothing, it's a good question, I placed the U87s closer to the piano than I would have liked to try and calm some of the reverb in the large tiled room, otherwise I would have placed them further away.

[nhaudio]

Bruce, it really depends  on what type of music you're recording for. An ortf for a classical music type piano sound will work great where for a pop song, it might include too much ambiance and muddy the mix. So a close micking maybe preferable. 
Also why not thinking in player perspective, which has more attack sound (closer to the hammers) than the audience.

They're really lots of variables... 

Check this article with its examples (it is a good read)
 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/pianorecording_0108.htm

 

the sound files: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/pianorecordingaudio.htm

[studiomprd]

" So, please set a novice straight. What am I missing? "

years of experience!

 

I have also been happy with my results placing an AKG 414  or an AKG 451 under grand and baby grand pianos...

 

" general principle of getting close to the sound source to increase S/N ratio (noise "

and / or

" recording that reflection off the lid was an important part of capturing the real sound of the piano, at least as the audience perceives it. "

yes, but of course: it depends...

among other things, what is the purpose and goal of the recording ?

it is also a matter of subjective choices...
 

[Sound Art Film]

Just to give you all an update.

I went with an Audix C212B, on a mic stand, to the right of the piano, located about 2 1/2 ft from the hammers, at a 45 degree angle. This was in a CEO's house and I set up 6 Auralex ProMax gobo's to help control some of the rooms accoustics.

The player was also singing and doing intermittent OTF interviews, so I gave her a hidden DPA 4060. Later when she was done with OTF interviews and got into the 1 on 1 interviews, the MKH 50 made an appearance.

I think the sound turned out great for what it was. Make no mistake, had I more time for setup and budget, I would of approached this differently, with the biggest change being a large diaghpram condenser on the singers voice. Actually, for a lav, I understand Simon's use of DPAs in Les Miserables. I am doubtful any of the other lavs in my arsenal would of performed like the 4060.

I'll upload a sample for all of you to hear how it turned out.

Thanks once again for all of your advice!

Paul

[Sound Art Film]

Here is the mixed, non edited version of the piano and singer.

 

www.pauldorough.com/Rec, Non Edited.wav

 

 

Here is the re mixed, edited version ( Just something I did quick to improve it a little, by no means professional).

 

www.pauldorough.com/Rec, Edited.wav

 

Not really meant to be judged, just an example of what I got with the tools I used.  :-)

[soundslikejustin]

Here is the mixed, non edited version of the piano and singer.

 

www.pauldorough.com/Rec, Non Edited.wav

 

 

Here is the re mixed, edited version ( Just something I did quick to improve it a little, by no means professional).

 

www.pauldorough.com/Rec, Edited.wav

 

Not really meant to be judged, just an example of what I got with the tools I used.  :-)

I think it's nice, the voice sounds a LOT tighter than the piano though (which makes sense considering mics and placement).

Perhaps you can run the voice through a verb or something to give it a bit more room.

[Bruce Watson]

Check this article with its examples (it is a good read)

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/pianorecording_0108.htm

 

Holy cats! That's... obsessive. I like it. Answers my immediate questions, then goes on to answer the questions that I don't know enough yet to be able to ask. And answers those in depth. So nice to have the sound files which makes it very easy to understand the authors point(s). Thanks for that.

[chris_bollard]

I've got a pair of AKG 451s that I've recently dusted off, and I was pleasantly surprised at how good they sound and how versatile they are. As a pair to have tucked away in my day case (with a stereo bar and other mounting options) they're really handy. Depending on the situation can be great of you can mount them for in car rigs (rear seat!) and a quick setup for stereo music record. Recently mixed a court room Doco episode (coroners inquest) where I had to cover lots of areas - as once the session started I just couldn't tweak or adjust anything. The 451 was pretty amazing in a live room that was running an auto mix PA system. Sorry for the digression - used the 451 to good result on baby grand - not jammed right in but still pretty close (to get some separation from the other instruments) Bass response was ok considering the small diaphragm - and good at reasonably high SPL

[mikewest]

I have generally used 414's for grand pianos

Attached file was done with a 414 and the bass end and 460/CK61 on treble end

A very fine upright piano in a house

Arranger, pianist Paul Isaacs (Sound Devices)

Vocal Sarah Macombee on a Neuman

 

mikeGun.mp3