Brent Lestage Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 4k is overrated I find it amazing (and disturbing) how many shooters are already jumping on the 4K bandwagon. Here's the thing... The major manufacturers failed to sell their 3D wares on their cutting edge technology-consuming public, and it seems to have fizzled out with mainstream feature and television production. Therefore, like with so many other schemes designed to drive new technology forward (read: sell units), manufacturers are out to hype the "next best thing" - this "thing" now being 4K and beyond. Aside from large venue cinema projection, SFX and science/engineering applications, it makes little sense for the corporate/doc/newsmagazine/reality shooter to invest in 4K at this point, as this additional resolution holds far more expenses than benefits. This is just my personal opinion, of course, but consider this: In the past 3-years we have seen the trend in cameras move from small sensors to large sensors with shallower depth of field being an added benefit. This ability to separate subjects from their background environs has won the hearts and minds of DPs and producers alike. So why, pray tell, is everyone rushing out to have higher resolution soft focus backgrounds? Time will tell which way the 4K wind will blow, of course, but a camera like the new Arri Amira will certainly fill a very viable and useful role in production now and into the foreseeable future. I welcome it's practical application (for the rest of us), and am even more hopeful that better storytelling will begin to take precedence over technological gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 Aside from large venue cinema projection, SFX and science/engineering applications, it makes little sense for the corporate/doc/newsmagazine/reality shooter to invest in 4K at this point, as this additional resolution holds far more expenses than benefits. The biggest issue is file size. Just as 192kHz/24-bit audio files are much larger in size than a 48kHz/24-bit file, the 4K video files are roughly four times larger than normal 2K / HD files. As a result, post facilities are deluged when they have to deal with a 4K project. What's interesting to reflect is that the VFX industry has been unable to keep up with 4K because of the render times and file copy times needed to process images this big. As a result, all the big blockbuster sci-fi/fantasy films shot in 4K are actually being downrezzed to 2K in post. (The current Hobbit is a good example.) They do use the 4K images at some stages to do small blow-ups and repositions in some cases, but for the most part, the whole pipeline is 2K. This is just my personal opinion, of course, but consider this: In the past 3-years we have seen the trend in cameras move from small sensors to large sensors with shallower depth of field being an added benefit. This ability to separate subjects from their background environs has won the hearts and minds of DPs and producers alike. So why, pray tell, is everyone rushing out to have higher resolution soft focus backgrounds? There is a visual difference if you have a big wide shot and everything is in focus. Me personally, I don't think sharpness is everything, and -- as DPs have often said to me in the color-correction bay -- "with this actor, sharpness is not our friend." I actually think that dynamic range and color accuracy are much more important than sharpness. Red's new Dragon chip claims both (in addition to 6K capability), but it's the exposure range that I'm most interested in. It's kind of like saying you have a microphone that goes to 40kHz. Do we really care? At some point, I'm not convinced it matters for what we do. I do agree that the Arri Amira could be a dynamite choice if it lives up to the hype and proves to be a reliable camera for documentary and ENG work. One huge advantage is, unlike Red, the Amira can be used as a shoulder-mount camera right out of the box with no accessories, which is exactly the way ENG cameras have worked for 40 years. I admire Arri for looking very close at the market and what people want, and then design products their customers are asking for. It also helps that Arri talks extensively to post facilities and producers to find out what data formats work best for a fast and efficient workflow -- and I think this single thing has been what's made them so successful in American television so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 I've been having this on going argument (with friends) about how I think the Canon 5d is a sh*&t camera for doc work.. I think I just need to show this, and I believe I just won my point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 fka Borg 357: " I think the Canon 5d is a sh*&t camera for doc work.. " but you are not a shooter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 I've been having this on going argument (with friends) about how I think the Canon 5d is a sh*&t camera for doc work.. I think I just need to show this, and I believe I just won my point! I think the 5D can work for certain things, but it's soft on wide shots and the picture falls apart very quickly when you have to brighten images. For talking head interviews in a well-lit room, it's not terrible. Not my first choice, though. And all syncing is still manual (or Plural Eyes), unless you jump through a few hoops. As long as the producers pay a reasonable rate, I don't care if they shoot on ManureCam. Shoot on whatever makes them happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Lestage Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 It's all relative, actually... I used my 5D on a quick green screen job (I know, totally wrong camera for that) but it looked fine for the corporate talking head it was used for and, you know what...? Not long after, I watched a broadcast of THE LONGEST DAY over Veteran's Day weekend and witnessed probably some of the worst processed shots known to mankind -- and this was a major feature film (albeit 1962, but you get my point). The story comes first... the visuals only enhance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwill Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 I saw the only ARRi Amira in existence on Sunday in Philly at the Eagles game. NFL Films had it on the sidelines doing low angle, it was in town and then on a flight to Germany! Nice looking camera, the NFL Films camera op was very chatty and was showing it off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 What seemed to be his general (or specific) opinion? Or, if you weren't close enough to hear, did they have to pry it from his hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 do we need to redesign the Amira ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 24, 2013 Report Share Posted December 24, 2013 do we need to redesign the Amira ? No, but given the option, certain people could benefit from modification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwill Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 The opinion of NFL Films camera op was "this is the camera they have been waiting for"…." an eng style on the shoulder, out of the box camera that accepts cine lenses and is user friendly"…..it was pretty funny to watch the ARRI rep box the camera as the NFL Films crews all gathered round! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 another example of: Red done Right... designed and built by a camera company.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 27, 2013 Report Share Posted December 27, 2013 It's all relative, actually... I used my 5D on a quick green screen job (I know, totally wrong camera for that) but it looked fine for the corporate talking head it was used for... Feh! 8-bit! Not good. I can immediately tell when 8-bit still camera video comes in during a post session -- the scopes get all "blocky" and weird. The keys tend to get "choppy" as well. Not good. But the compositing software is so good nowadays, it can make up for some of these lapses to a point. The Amira will be an interesting addition to production for 2014. I think I mentioned elsewhere that there's some controversy on the Red group because several people recently compared the latest Reds with the standard Arri Alexas, and in some ways, the Alexa came out better. There's a lot of grumbling about this going on. But there are so many factors in exposure and sharpness, I think all these high-end cameras are so good, the similarities are far greater than the differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 27, 2013 Report Share Posted December 27, 2013 Marc: " in some ways, the Alexa came out better. " I "heard" the tests were not fair ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 27, 2013 Report Share Posted December 27, 2013 I "heard" the tests were not fair ... I believe this is what Red is saying. All I know is, they stuck a guy in a dark room, standing by a bare light bulb, and shot him with five different cameras, and the Red didn't look so good. Several of the people participating were with the ASC and claim to have no affiliation with any camera manufacturer. I tend to think this is an "it depends" situation, but I have seen artifacts like this with the Red before. I just watched Elysium last night, and the rolling-shutter artifacts made the fast action scenes hard to watch for me -- too much horizontal blurring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codyman Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 I bet the Amira would make one hell of a good concert cam. I've been on a few shoots with Red / F65's etc and in a multicam, live environment, where we've basically had to treat it as though we're shooting film and have had to strategically time certain cameras to "roll out" at certain times so that we still have coverage going on at all times (vs on lower budget shoots where we've shot on the EX3 and we can just roll on through). If this is really a one man band, long recording, great looking camera with cine lenses, then this thing is going to be killer and I'm sure all the other manufacturers are going to have to scramble to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 The WiFi interface is interesting for an ENG camera (I guess that's what those antenna are for?). Being Arri, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some way to batch configure cameras on a multi-cam shoot, or maybe jam TC. I will be really happy to see this on doc/reality shoots. Perfect timing too. It seems like this year people are just starting to use Epics for that work. Mostly for more beauty shots, but I know a few people that worked on shows that tried to shoot at least some stuff with an Epic or Scarlet. I was talking to somebody that was boasting that their "reality" show was the first to shoot on an Epic (don't think that was accurate, maybe first to press release that info). I would think you miss a few key shots and production sees the value in an Arri. I also worked on one or two documentaries that tried to shoot as much as possible with an Alexa and it was a little unwieldy. Definitely not what it was designed for, but they did it. I am guessing we will see a race to make a nice mounting option for a hop/scratch receiver. That top handle looks like it has some nice threaded spots. Hopefully those antennas don't interfere. They would be pretty close to our gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 29, 2013 Report Share Posted December 29, 2013 Mostly for more beauty shots, but I know a few people that worked on shows that tried to shoot at least some stuff with an Epic or Scarlet. I was talking to somebody that was boasting that their "reality" show was the first to shoot on an Epic (don't think that was accurate, maybe first to press release that info). I would think you miss a few key shots and production sees the value in an Arri. I have worked on some post projects that had multiple Red cameras, and the pictures did not match. It took a lot of work to get them all in the same ballpark. The problem I see is that the cameras can have a completely different look depending on how they're set up, when they're made, and what firmware they're running. I don't know for sure if Arri or Sony have solved that problem either. This used to be very easy with live TV production. [Although the cameras on Sound of Music also did not match, from what I saw on-air.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 And an update: the pricing and packages for the Arri Amira camera have been announced, and it looks like it's going to be a little cheaper than expected, ranging from $35,000-$45,000. Detailed info at this link on NoFilmSchool.com: http://nofilmschool.com/2014/01/price-cost-eng-style-arri-amira-alexa-sensor-2k-hd-200fps/#more-75384 I think this will be an ideal combination for high-end HD ENG shooters, reality shows, and documentary producers who don't need more than HD. And I also noted the camera will do up to 200fps, which is very fast for a decent digital camera. From the looks of this, I think the Amira is a perfect replacement for the people who were shooting Super 16 in the 1990s and early 2000s. Same kinda deal, similar picture quality, and (as Arri says) "just pick up and shoot." I suspect this will sell very well and will also do well on the rental market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Its going to clean up. Although I thought it was going to be cheaper than that to compete with the F55 and C500, but maybe Arri don't see those camera's as being in the same market. It is cheaper (and thus more competitive) in Europe - looks like it'll only be around £2500 more than an F55 in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I still haven't seen one on set. I'm surprised, I thought it would be showing up by now. Still a nice camera IMO. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Last I heard they hadn't started shipping yet. There's a working prototype that they've been showing around, but that's the only one I'm aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm very much looking forward to working with one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 We're thinking of using a couple Amiras on a doc this spring… If they're shipping by then, and we can get ahold of them, and if they test as well as we hope they will, and... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 When they do ship, I'll bet they're going to be in high demand and hard to get hold of for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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