simon forbes Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi all, I'm the new owner of the 664 after twelve years using an SQN4S and everything seems better on the new mixer but am having difficulty: adjusting to using VU instead of PPM. It feels as though when recording any voice with a bit of dynamic range, then to keep the limiters from being on all the time, my average vu level is rather low. Not much above zero in fact, but my hazy recollection of sound theory tells me that the 1ppm is 4db so surely 8VU is the limit? Or have I got that wrong? And if so, why do the limiters cut in so much higher than that, at 18db? In short, I suppose my question is: for a good level, should I be keeping my VU levels in the orange part of the meter and let the limiters handle the peaks? Any advice gratefully received. All the best Simon Forbes England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi! I hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macrecorder Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 The SQN is analogue, the 664 is digital. You need to rethink your gain structure, and understand the difference between analogue (up to 20db or more) and digital (none) headroom. That chart is quite useful in showing the relative differences - look at EBU Digital v UK PPM. VU meters are also quite different to PPM's in response times, though SD have varying settings of hold time etc, which you can try. If your limiters are set at -2db, then yes, a lot of people will bring them down so that peaks are either no more than -6, -9, or -12, depending on specifications, which is why orange often starts at -12db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 As stated, learn to understand the difference between digital and analog. Then learn the difference in ballistics between a PPM meter and a VU meter. A true VU meter isn't designed to display peak levels. It was created as a (less than perfect, however) way to display relative loudness levels. As previously stated, SD offers a variety of metering options. Learning these will help you understand the differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_tatooles Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 The SQN is analogue, the 664 is digital. I want to clarify that the input of the 664 is analog (unless you are connecting with AES3/42), and is subject to the same "dynamics" as any analog input. Unlike a 788T, which converts, routes, and mixes in digital right after the signal is converted to digital, the 664 analog mix bus is analog. While there is a whole lot of digital in a 664, the main mixer path is analog. The "peak and VU" setting is the most common for 664 and other SD mixer users. It shows peak signal levels in dBu with selectable hold time (PPM spec is a fixed hold time), while showing VU to get a sense for input loudness (as John mentioned above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi, and welcome... " have I got that wrong? " yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 My general rule of thumb since the 442 is mix for VU to 0dB/-20dBFS and let the peaks land where they land. Depending on the dynamics of the content, that generally gives me peaks from +8 to +12dB (or -12 or -8dBFS) Limiters set at +16dB as a safety net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macrecorder Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi, and welcome... " have I got that wrong? " yes you're a charmer, aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bralleput Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I do the same on my 664 as Matt : modulation around +8 with peaks ....well whatever comes up.Wished limiter threshold could be set seperately on individual tracks (instead of L and R and X1 and X2 only).And a a 'scale' (analogue or 'digital') choice (software) in the menu would be nice.And interpunctions in Notes!!(",'_)( please Jon/Paul at SD!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_tatooles Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 ...please Jon/Paul at SD!) You left out Ringo and George. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted October 4, 2013 Report Share Posted October 4, 2013 turn me on, dead man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 Great Jon! Have told Paul I'm having a love affair with my 664 after many years of Nagra/DAT/Portadrive and 702T Thanks mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bralleput Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 You left out Ringo and George. I miss an 'h" in Jon ,and one of them is dead,and you are not!!So fix it,..Jon,Paul,George and Ringo !Because 'notes' in the 664 is very annoying nowadays.....I know....,I know It's a 'mixer' and not a 'recorder' (yeah right..)but I use it as an ISO recorder anyway,and notes needs a fix!!Thanx.David Carmiggelt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 5, 2013 Report Share Posted October 5, 2013 " Because 'notes' in the 664 is very annoying " hold your breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon forbes Posted October 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Thanks to all who responded to my post especially Matt and Bralleput who told me what I needed to know. Simon Uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Reviving this... Working on a lengthy project where prod company provides equipment. I have a 664 and one of the mics is a km100. Using it for sit down interviews, it sounds good, but the meters in the 664 never goes below -16, like I'm in a noisy environment. There's no audible noise, and it sounds fine. My guess is that it's a high hiss or low rumble (but changing the low cut doesn't change anything on the meters) , like self noise that I can't hear. It's mic related, my other mic, 8060, doesn't show anything like this. But since I can't hear it, I'm wondering what the meters are showing me. The "noise" is showing both in the iso and the mix. However on the camera or isn't visible at all. This might have been discussed before and I'm sorry if I'm repeating something, but I'm just curious to what this might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 troubleshooting 101: try a lo-pass (aka hi-cut) filter could also be RFI... or a number of other things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Fair enough, I should've said I haven't checked the files in a computer. And it's not so much a problem as it is an interesting thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Radlauer Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 You SHOULD know the rules..Once something has been discussed it can never be brought up again...even if you bring it up in the original thread. Its in the fine print...Hard to read on these tiny screens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Karlsson Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 There is a known "issue" with the 664, where there is a very high pitch (around 80khz) that is present when connecting an unbalanced source. This has been fixed in later production models. See the SD forum for more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Thanks Johnny! That's probably it. Interesting. I'll look into that. That would also explain why it doesn't go to the camera, I guess the outputs of the 664 and the ins of the camera don't have that range.. mradlauer: I know! This post was actually just a test to see how long it would take for him to see my error of repeating. He was kinda slow, I think he might be loosing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Radlauer Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 mradlauer: I know! This post was actually just a test to see how long it would take for him to see my error of repeating. He was kinda slow, I think he might be loosing it. One could only hope! lol :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulluysavage Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hi! I hope that helps! Meter_scales_from_HR.jpg Note that this chart shows a European digital scale. SMPTE/US installations use +24 dBu for 0 dBFS, with 0dBu at -20 dBFS. Matt's numbers/664 numbers are on this US scale. If you are looking at Vaselio's chart, Matt's numbers do not correspond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulluysavage Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Here's a chart with EBU and SMTPE digital scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 This is the new version from IPS chart and the correct version. Thanks for the update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.279748a58a2b862b7aa5f3b84126e232.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.