Conformed original BWAVs are out of sync by up to a frame compared to the AAF

[Constantin]

For those who feel the need to ridicule this threat: Please be way funnier, so far it's pretty lame.

No-one (exept maybe Pindrop) is suggesting that the world will come to a speedy end because of this particular issue. And I'm sure for some time yet, no-one will force PSM's to use a certain recorder on location. The very purpose of this thread is to avoid that from happening. If you don't want to particiapate in an honest quest to achieve that, feel free to ignore this thread.

 

For those who are bored by it, please feel free not to read this thread, no-one is forcing you to. There is plethora of For-sale threads, which, if read in succession, are pretty boring, too, and many of you have not yet commented in most of them, yet. I mean, there must be a razorsharp comment waiting to be made in one of the many "WTS - SD 552" threads.

 

The notion that this thread is secretly a Sound Devices Ad is laughable. Most of those who have commented here, are self-professed Zaxcom users. Some have said that they proudly list Zaxcom recorders in their quote to prod companies and will even charge more for them. This thread is not about how great SD is, or how bad Zax is, because neither statement is true. It's about what can be done to get all relevant location recorders in-sync, so to speak.

 

It's true what Jeff says that thousands of sound rolls have been synced and used without any issues reported. As Marc pointed out, that's in part due to the fact that Post will simply deal with it. That does not imply though, that it is not an issue. As Patrick pointed out just above, this issue re-surfaces in sound post (unlike the camera sync issues Marc mentioned), so now the assistent editor has to deal with it and then the dialogue editor has to do it again, too. So far, they just had to suck it up and deal with it. But now that this issue has been id'd, it can be changed.

And then there are many, many projects where there isn't even a dialogue editor. There is just one sound post guy who has to deal with everything. On those small projects, there are often only a few days (sometimes only one)  budgeted for audio post. There simply is no time to deal with sync issues.

Of course, as some of you have suggested in some of the funnier comments in this thread (and some really were funny), we could just ignore this sync problem. But is that really the professional standard we aspire to?

[pindrop]

For those who feel the need to ridicule this threat: Please be way funnier, so far it's pretty lame.

No-one (exept maybe Pindrop) is suggesting that the world will come to a speedy end because of this particular issue........

That's right I've tried sticking my head in the sand as advocated but it's really difficult to assess anything or breathe........

[macrecorder]

Constantin: +1. 

[John Blankenship]

What many of us have responded to in this thread is that some people are overreacting to an issue minor enough that it is only now surfacing after many years of successful workflow. A few folks are just plain being "drama queens" about the situation.

As a Zaxcom user I'd like to see it addressed, but proper perspective should be maintained and the alarmists should realize that if the sky has not fallen thus far, it's not going to. The only requests I've received from producers for specific gear is because it's a piece of equipment that they're personally familiar with. Typically, if I tell them I have something equivalent, they're fine with it.

No matter who works to address this, it should be commonly understood knowledge that the problem exists because of Avid and the fact that Avid makes video and audio editing systems that are not fully compatible with each other (not a new situation, by the way).

So, should it be addressed? Yes.

But, should we get all (as the saying goes) "het up about it"? No.

[macrecorder]

The only people who are talking about 'sky falling in' and getting all het about it are those who are foisting this perception on the people who want to discuss it. Go figure. 

[John Blankenship]

That's a mischaracterization of the facts.

I stated my position above.

[Constantin]

I stated my position above.

Yes, and I absolutely agree with it. One thing I'd like to add: There were only a few comments in this thread that might be guilty of panick-reactions. But many more responses then only concentrated on those rather than focussing on the many valid arguments. Anyway, maybe now we can continue discussing the actual issue. There are some interesting pointers in the DUC thread. One solution is, of course, for the recorder manufacturers to fix it. That'd be great if they can do it. Takev said that it might be difficult for Boom Recorder. I would say that even waiting for the next full second (at which point there must be a zero at all sample rates) would be acceptable. If I understand this correctly, Avid will truncate audiofiles anyway when using the autosync function. Another option (also suggested in the DUC) would be to write an app which would be used just before all audio is imported into Avid. This would truncate all files to the frame edge, in batch process, while maintaining all metadata. Anyone up for it? This could be a real money-maker - for a time Any other idea? The OP of the DUC thread said, and I thought that was quite clever, that workflows which involve a camera will always be frame-based. So it doesn't really make sense to build recorders that don't start and end on a frame edge

[John Blankenship]

All good points, Constantin.

 

Here's a thought.  There are circumstances where picture will be cut on an Avid, the audio sent to Pro Tools for sound post, then the audio brought back into Avid for final output.  Since the massaging within Pro Tools is on a sample level, then regardless of the recorder used, will the same issues be encountered when that output is re-conformed in the Avid? 

 

All of this brings to mind why I still request "two-pops" at both heads and tails of the timeline when I bring in the audio from an edit for sound post.

[macrecorder]

John, sorry if I sounded like I was having a pop at you. I was referring to the rather tedious overheated scorn from some posters regarding others who would like to further their understanding of this issue. As regards Pro Tools, I think that an OMF exported from Avid will have a master start time, or timestamp. Presumably this coincides with start frame edge. After that, as long as everything retains their relative positions, then sync is maintained, and Avid is seeing the OMF as one giant file, so is not trying to align individual clips with single audio files inside the omf. Just a thought.

[Constantin]

All good points, Constantin.

Here's a thought. There are circumstances where picture will be cut on an Avid, the audio sent to Pro Tools for sound post, then the audio brought back into Avid for final output. Since the massaging within Pro Tools is on a sample level, then regardless of the recorder used, will the same issues be encountered when that output is re-conformed in the Avid?

"Our" issue only becomes a problem when a (referenced) aaf (and presumably omf) gets passed from Avid to PT and there the original location audio files are re-conformed. Going back to Avid afterwards you wouldn't want to do another re-conform, though, because you'd lose all the massaging you've done in PT, you referred to. The only way to go back is full-length playouts, I'd assume? Like doing stems? You'd only have to sync them once.

I hope I understood your question correctly.

By the way, the pop/2-pop thing wouldn't help much, because by the time the files arrive in PT they would have been edited out already, but it is here where the sync issue arises

[John Blankenship]

I usually ask the editor to retain the 2-pops until after I've sent the sound files back.  That gives them such a quick and easy way to make sure they're in sync.  If the head matches and the tail matches, what's not to like?  Then they're free to chop them out after that.

 

Of course, every situation is just a little bit (or a lot) different.

[Constantin]

I usually ask the editor to retain the 2-pops until after I've sent the sound files back. That gives them such a quick and easy way to make sure they're in sync. If the head matches and the tail matches, what's not to like? Then they're free to chop them out after that.

Of course, every situation is just a little bit (or a lot) different.

Oh, you mean at the head and tail of the entire project? Sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, those pops of course make a lot of sense. I thought you meant the pops that are, like in the Nagra days, on each individual audio file .

[John Blankenship]

Thanks.  I corrected my earlier post to "heads and tails of the timeline" to hopefully avoid that confusion for others.

[pindrop]

Another option (also suggested in the DUC) would be to write an app which would be used just before all audio is imported into Avid. This would truncate all files to the frame edge, in batch process, while maintaining all metadata. Anyone up for it? This could be a real money-maker - for a time ......

There seems to be quite a few specialized editing software utilities out there already which address some conform / time saving with Pro Tools and picture edit software etc. which could quite possibly be adapted for pre-edit conforming to frame edges?

Titan, Virtual Katy, Conformalizer, Assemblerator, Reconformer, EdiLoad etc.

There must be sufficient incentive to write these highly specialized utilities for cost/time saving purposes, and perhaps one or more of them will accommodate this more recently clearly identified requirement.

[pindrop]

What many of us have responded to in this thread is that some people are overreacting to an issue minor enough that it is only now surfacing after many years of successful workflow. A few folks are just plain being "drama queens" about the situation.

As a Zaxcom user I'd like to see it addressed, but proper perspective should be maintained and the alarmists should realize that if the sky has not fallen thus far, it's not going to. The only requests I've received from producers for specific gear is because it's a piece of equipment that they're personally familiar with. Typically, if I tell them I have something equivalent, they're fine with it.

No matter who works to address this, it should be commonly understood knowledge that the problem exists because of Avid and the fact that Avid makes video and audio editing systems that are not fully compatible with each other (not a new situation, by the way).

So, should it be addressed? Yes.

But, should we get all (as the saying goes) "het up about it"? No.

Actually in truth I haven't been in the least bit het up, panicked, or otherwise exercised by anything in this thread.

In the unlikely event that one manufacturers machine was declined I've got another one anyway so why should I be?

Originally I was just responding to the rather fatuous remark,

OMG

I've been watching movies with sound that is not frame edge accurate...

(which is pretty dismissive of everyone's efforts to understand the issue), with a rhetorical counter remark but then immediately became identified as the perpetrator of panic, and it amused me to defend the position for a while and see where it went, that's it really.

 

Having said that though I am genuinely interested to understand the issue, it's ramifications, and see how it'll get resolved if it does, and I would quite like not to be delivering files that I know could be identified as causing additional work, when other files don't, even though it's Avid that's moving the sound on the timeline.

[Marc Wielage]

You're right that crap happens and that it is the job of the assistant editor or the telecine operator to move the files in sync when loading into the Avid. That's what they're  doing. The project is edited and in sync. This thread has been started though because when the project is handed over to audio post and exported for the use in protools everything is moved out of sync again because of the frame based nature of Avid. Meaning the work of the assistant editor has to be done again by the dialogue editor. 

 

No, I'm talking about moving it in straight 1-frame increments. We have never, ever, been able to move sound in subframe increments in traditional video post, HD or SD. You can do it in Pro Tools, and you could "technically" do it in analog 35mm by slipping the mag a perf or two (half a frame). Not in Avid or Final Cut, to my knowledge. In dailies, we get it as close to 0 frame accuracy as humanly possible, but we can't go less than a frame with any known system. Even if we could, the exported OMF's don't support subframes -- it's strictly 1 whole frame. 

 

It's the job of the dialogue editor to slip and slide it on the subframe level, at least in my opinion. For dailies and for normal editing, 1-frame accuracy should be fine, and the clap should appear to be dead-on to the eye. John Purcell's excellent book Dialogue Editing: A Guide to the Invisible Art goes into this in great detail, and points out the need to slip and slide dialogue as needed, even after the scene is edited.  

 

BTW, in addition to the cameras being off, don't forget that all solid-state monitors are also off in that they introduce a small amount of delay in the signal. They're typically at least 10ms off, which is about 1/3 of a frame. So there are sources for sync delays all over the place. 

[John Blankenship]

...

 

BTW, in addition to the cameras being off, don't forget that all solid-state monitors are also off in that they introduce a small amount of delay in the signal. They're typically at least 10ms off, which is about 1/3 of a frame. So there are sources for sync delays all over the place. 

 

When Marc said "solid-state monitors" what he really meant was "digital monitors."  Solid state monitors have been around displaying analog signals for a long time without a delay.  Digital processing necessitates the delay.  I know Marc knows the difference but I wanted to make sure anyone looking in wasn't mislead by an inadvertent slip of the keyboard."

[old school]

No, I'm talking about moving it in straight 1-frame increments. We have never, ever, been able to move sound in subframe increments in traditional video post, HD or SD. You can do it in Pro Tools, and you could "technically" do it in analog 35mm by slipping the mag a perf or two (half a frame). Not in Avid or Final Cut, to my knowledge. In dailies, we get it as close to 0 frame accuracy as humanly possible, but we can't go less than a frame with any known system. Even if we could, the exported OMF's don't support subframes -- it's strictly 1 whole frame. 

 

It's the job of the dialogue editor to slip and slide it on the subframe level, at least in my opinion. For dailies and for normal editing, 1-frame accuracy should be fine, and the clap should appear to be dead-on to the eye. John Purcell's excellent book Dialogue Editing: A Guide to the Invisible Art goes into this in great detail, and points out the need to slip and slide dialogue as needed, even after the scene is edited.  

 

BTW, in addition to the cameras being off, don't forget that all solid-state monitors are also off in that they introduce a small amount of delay in the signal. They're typically at least 10ms off, which is about 1/3 of a frame. So there are sources for sync delays all over the place. 

And this is why this whole topic is so much to do about nothing IMO other than the detective work that found these abnormalities in the systems we use in production and post production... That was achieved by the end of the 1st page of this thread for me. Hey you guys can talk all you want about this topic. I would never propose  stopping a dialog. Knock yourself out coming up with work a rounds or blame on a given part of the system that works remarkably well considering the many components. I'm glad you have the time and interest. The truth is that in the real work a day world of media creation, none of the systems parts were ever perfect but were make to work by people. This is the history, present, and I suspect future of wedding sound and picture. If you guys ever make the system perfect and foolproof I will be the 1st to congratulate you and sing your praises. In the meantime I'm working with what i've got at hand today. At the same time let it be known I have and will alway comment on any topic I want to. Period. That's how I am.

CrewC

[Philip Perkins]

As a small repeat: there are many factors that affect sync in a project, and the bigger and more complex the project the more factors there are.  This issue is only one of those factors, maybe.  The rest of the factors will still be in play no matter what is done about this one.  Calm down and keep rolling.

 

philp

[Constantin]

There seems to be quite a few specialized editing software utilities out there already which address some conform / time saving with Pro Tools and picture edit software etc. which could quite possibly be adapted for pre-edit conforming to frame edges?

Titan, Virtual Katy, Conformalizer, Assemblerator, Reconformer, EdiLoad etc.

There must be sufficient incentive to write these highly specialized utilities for cost/time saving purposes, and perhaps one or more of them will accommodate this more recently clearly identified requirement.

 

No, conform software will not work. The frame-edge thing needs to be done before the files are first imported into Avid. It will be futile later in the process.

 

 If you guys ever make the system perfect and foolproof I will be the 1st to congratulate you and sing your praises. In the meantime I'm working with what i've got at hand today. At the same time let it be known I have and will alway comment on any topic I want to. Period. That's how I am.

CrewC

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you (and others) should not participate in this thread. You were complaining about boredom induced by this thread, and I was merely offering alternatives.

Although, in spite of your boredom, you clearly find this thread interesting enough to participate quite regularly, so it can't all be that bad.

Anyway, I understood your comments to mean that it is all not a big deal. And that may be right. As you said, there are many reasons for sync issues, as Philip also mentions:

As a small repeat: there are many factors that affect sync in a project, and the bigger and more complex the project the more factors there are.  This issue is only one of those factors, maybe.  The rest of the factors will still be in play no matter what is done about this one.  Calm down and keep rolling.

 

philp

 

Exactly, there are many factors for sync problems. And this is one of them. If this gets fixed, there will still be sync problems, but fewer. Time spent in post fixing sync will be saved. So it's worthwile to lobby for a fix. This particular one is caused by some of our recorders. So it's reasonable that we (some of us) would ask and wonder about a solution. DOPs, editors, and whoever else, can lobby to get sync problems fixed which concern their equipment.

 

Truth be told, I think Avid should fix this, but sometimes it's easier to go to the mountain, rather than asking the mountain to come to you

[pindrop]

No, conform software will not work. The frame-edge thing needs to be done before the files are first imported into Avid. It will be futile later in the process.

Thanks Constantin for your thoughtful and helpful contributions to this thread but just a note I did actually say

 

which could quite possibly be adapted for pre-edit conforming to frame edges

 

Titan, Virtual Katy, Conformalizer, Assemblerator, Reconformer, EdiLoad etc.

[Constantin]

Thanks Constantin for your thoughtful and helpful contributions to this thread but just a note I did actually say

which could quite possibly be adapted for pre-edit conforming to frame edges

Titan, Virtual Katy, Conformalizer, Assemblerator, Reconformer, EdiLoad etc.

Ah OK, I thought you meant pre-SOUND-edit. But AFAIK, the programs work by analyzing and comparing two different EDLs, and creating a new, changed EDL, right? I don't think they are actually doing much if anything to the actual audio whatsoever. But I never use these programs, so I'm not too sure

[Philip Perkins]

No, conform software will not work. The frame-edge thing needs to be done before the files are first imported into Avid. It will be futile later in the process.

 

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you (and others) should not participate in this thread. You were complaining about boredom induced by this thread, and I was merely offering alternatives.

Although, in spite of your boredom, you clearly find this thread interesting enough to participate quite regularly, so it can't all be that bad.

Anyway, I understood your comments to mean that it is all not a big deal. And that may be right. As you said, there are many reasons for sync issues, as Philip also mentions:

 

Exactly, there are many factors for sync problems. And this is one of them. If this gets fixed, there will still be sync problems, but fewer. Time spent in post fixing sync will be saved. So it's worthwile to lobby for a fix. This particular one is caused by some of our recorders. So it's reasonable that we (some of us) would ask and wonder about a solution. DOPs, editors, and whoever else, can lobby to get sync problems fixed which concern their equipment.

 

Truth be told, I think Avid should fix this, but sometimes it's easier to go to the mountain, rather than asking the mountain to come to you

 

Sync issues will have to be fixed anyway.  Whether one is fixing the results of one or several errors doesn't matter as you drag the project back into sync in the final check before the dubstage.  If Avid or etc or etc fixes this issues then great, I still don't see it as being something that will save time re final sync checks in post--the other factors are still in play--we'll have to do the final checks and resyncs whether they fix it or not.

 

philp

[sonmi451]

Hi,

 

just signed up to join the discussion and clarify some things. I'm the guy who started the original thread on the duc. I wasn't going to sign up here as I have too many accounts already but did anyway.

I think it's worth clarifying things to help understand what the issue is. I'm not going to comment on who's the one to blame here. I'm not interested in blaming anyone. I started the thread because after years of the infamous "shrugs and fixes" I was simply tired of hand-syncing clips that could have been bang-on in the first place. We've dealt with this on countless films and it has nothing to do with the often mentioned "fact" in this thread that things simply fall out of sync all the time in post, so why bother in the first place.

 

First a word on the comment about the AVID not being able to sync BWAVs sample-accurately:

Technically speaking this is true. BUT:

1) When syncing up dailies there's no reason why audio needs to live outside the boundaries of the picture. There is "nothing" before and after the last frame of a given shot so why should the audio for that shot start a fraction of frames before and/or after the shot. The smallest "grid" on film is a full frame. Referring to syncing dailies there absolutely no reason why we need to have audio being able to live outside the boundaries of the first and last frame. There is nothing to go with that audio.

2) When interlocking multiple cameras and/or audio recorders on set they are interlocked using TC. TC is again based on a full-frame grid and not on samples. So why would you want 3 different interlocked audio recorders start their files mid-frame? I can't think of a good reason but maybe there is one that you can contribute.

 

With this in mind I'm not sure if it's generally a good idea to have audio-for-film-machines stamp files off full frames of the TC the sample-count refers to.

 

This is the reason why the AVID MC works strictly in a frame grid because any exchange done to following picture dept. (vex, online-editing, color grading) is all TC/full frame based.

 

So far the AVID/picture side of things. Any please feel free to educate me on the above if it's nonsense.

 

Here's a summary of what becomes the sync-issue in post:

 

As far as I understood the AVID will round the time-stamp to the closest full TC frame of the project frame-rate and also render silence to the end of each file to compensate for the delta to the next frame at the end of a file. By doing this every file is being pulled or pushed out of sync by up to a full frame minus 1 sample. So syncing dailies using TC will sync every file with a random error of +- one frame. This is the point where the part pif the users come in that say "who cares, +-1 frame that's pretty close. They should stop whining and sync is by eye." That's fair enough but it will create work that people where trying to avoid in the first place when they invented TC-interlock.

 

So OK. Lets assume the assistant editor has hand-synced all of that (which he usually won't because he doesn't have the time and also seems no reason why he shouldn't sync the dailies to a wrong TC and it's all done in a Telecine shop that uses an InDAW that does it all by numbers anyway.)

 

So the dialog editor gets an AAF/OMF from editorial and then uses the "expand to tracks" feature of Protools' field recorder workflow to bring in all the split-tracks and the original BWAVs because he want's to find the best possible audio coming from you guys.

When ProTools does this it reads the TC-stamp from the OMF/AAF media and grabs the same address from the original BWAVs and places all tracks from that BWAV into the timeline incl. all edits, cross-fades etc. It's an incredibly powerful feature and saves a huge amount of time compared to any EDL-based workflow (Titan, EdiLoad, Assemblerator etc.) that we used in the past. These are not immune to the issue either BTW. 

 

Thing is: The auto-conformed audio won't be in sync to the AAF/OMF because the AVID has effectively changed the content of the AVID media relative to it's original sample-count 

 

So again we'll have to go in and sync up even if someone has done this in the AVID before.

 

Then there a whole sound editing team that might be using just mono-guides from the AVID to work against for week till the dialog-editor has come up with a first rough clean-up. Especially foley has to be bang-on sync to the dx track. So when the shiny dx-bounce comes in again the foley team has to go in and check sync form every piece they have cut to because all their elements are randomly off and you hear double footsteps etc.

 

This is just to illustrate the implications of something that might seem "easy to fix". Yes it is easy to fix. You just have to sit down and hand-sync every piece of audio. Not rocket-science but takes a long time.

 

At least on the teams I've worked on dialog-editors are very concerned about sync and it's totally not taken for granted that things simply "go out of sync for unknown reasons" just like that or that "films are never sync anyway" as been suggested between the lines in some of the postings I've read.

 

Yes we shrug and and fix it because we're pros but it's not pro that this happens in the first place and it shouldn't be normal just because it has been like this for years.

 

Again, I don't know if AVID can or should fix something or Zaxcom, Nagra and Sonosax on the recorder-end. The deva is an incredible machine and I've recorded production sound myself for almost a decade on Nagra 4.2 and Stereo, PD2, PD4, Deva II, SD, Cantar, Deva IV before fully moving to post some time ago for various reasons. The reason I posted this is to trigger a discussion that hopefully triggers something that can improve things. This is not about a crusade for or against one or another machine. And a discussion about the latter is something I couldn't be less interested in.

 

But AFAIk things are moving behind the curtains and I hope we can soon move on and focus on what we're actually hired for.

 

An interim-solution could be an application that truncates files to full-frames or the AVID doing that on import but like I tried to explain at the top I really see only advantages for the Deva, Nagra, Sonosax users if their machines recorded at full frames or even better at 00 frames.

Of course you can arguing that AVID should be syncing BWAVs sample-accurately but I'd be interested why that would help with the things in mind I wrote about sound vs. pic interlock.

 

I posted the issue on the DUC hoping to get some attention from AVID and users that might have solution but it turned out it's a cross-platform issue. I'm sure the involved companies are working on a fix. Pointing fingers at each other and have dialog-editors compensate for that from their time-budgets is not going to cut it, IMO.

 

 

BTW: I have plenty of demo-footage and BWAVs from sync-test shoots for major films if you're interested in checking this out yourself. 

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Frank.

www.wildtrax.eu

[Soundwil]

Thanks Frank.