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Production sound mixers - give me some insight


Joe Riggs

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Hoping to get some insight on the following: First off I'm in post and I'm used to getting 1 audio file per take, and that file will included all the audio tracks recorded for that take, so when I drop it in the timeline, all the tracks are connected.

This production sound mixer has been recording each track separately, so for scene 1 take 1, I'll have 4 files:

001Take1 - boom

001Take1 - lav

001Take1 - lav2

001Take1 - lav3

So now I have to select all four files, bring them into the timeline and connect them for each take. Not the end of the world but just really ineffcient amd unless they are using a H4N, I've always received one audio file, with all audio tracks included in it. Thought this was pretty standard?

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What your used to is a Polyphonic WAV file.. All track files (1-8 for example) are included within 1 file...Instead of recording a Polyphonic WAV file he (or she) recorded mono files for each track.... it is an option... If this is a long show it should of been addressed earlier... If it's a one two or 5 day for example, the recordist SHOULD of given post Poly files as a default.... IN MY OPINION, unless they were told to do different....

 

 

 Standard.... a bit strange these days..... Standard for me for sure... but others use Mono when requested.... So many standards these days are out the window....  Boom ops... standard?  Utility guys standard?... Poly files standard?  10 hr days standard.... Sit down  1/2 hr lunch ...standard?  and on and on and on... Comical at best... ::)

 

Hope this helps...

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Thank you for the insight.

 

I'm glad I now know that it is called Polyphonic WAV files. I was trying to explain to the mixer what I meant and that would of helped. 

 

There was definitely no talk of mono files  Unfortunately, I believe it is a limitation of his setup, from what I was able to understand he is using a mixer but recording into Pro Tools?    He is not using a 788T or anything. 

 

He said he could export OMF's and that will bring in the files from 1 take. I guess we will see. 

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Hi, and welcome...

" I'm in post and I'm used to getting 1 audio file per take, "

your lack of experience and familiarity with "poly-wav" vs. mono-wav files for multi-track recording, suggests that this is a low-budget scenario, and combined the other post tells me that a lot of folks don't know what they are doing in movie-making...  They haven't got a plan, and they are sticking to it...

 

well, too late for the workflow test...

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Joe, were you privy to any pre-production meetings or coordination? You should have been given an opportunity to submit delivery specs to the production crew. Receiving mono files, while not necessarily the more popular method, is one of the professional methods I delivering multi-track audio files, in fact compatible with more systems than poly, although as noted, potentially less convenient.

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Polys are generally acknowledged to be easier for everyone but there are many situations is which mono files are asked for.  If you have a request to the production sound person about how you want your files recorded then make sure to send along an email before the shoot.  Do not assume that the standard for you is the standard for everyone because it is not.

 

philp

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Unfortunately, he is using an unorthodox setup that is incapable of delivering polyphonic wav files.

 

Every production I have been involved in other than this one, the mixer delivered Poly's, never had I ever needed to say a word to them (often I don't have an oppurtunity since I'm hired after the shoot), so this is really disappointing.  

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Mixer maybe guilty of using older gear that does not support poly files, but if he was not given a delivery spec that specifically called for poly file, unfortunately it is you that must adapt. There is nothing wrong with the files that you have been given as they are delivered in a current professional format. Even most Pro Tools systems, the gold standard in professional post sound workstations, still produces mono files as a default. You may be able to batch process tr files to convert from mono to poly BWAV using some sort of utility program as an intermediate step.

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Hey Rick, he didn't do what the producers asked. There has been other issues that I was rather surprised by as well. In fact, I wish you were on this production...look at that gear, you're like the superman of sound. 

 

Tom, I disagree, while no one specified poly files, no one should have to…every film I’ve been a part of has produced poly files without the need to be told. As a previous poster said,  "If there is a standard, it's wav poly files."   However, it’s a moot point because with his setup, he can’t deliver them anyway.  Lesson learned, I will make this abundantly clear for future productions.

 

Wandering ear, that software sounds like the solution, thank you.

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Hey Rick, he didn't do what the producers asked. There has been other issues that I was rather surprised by as well. In fact, I wish you were on this production...look at that gear, you're like the superman of sound. 

 

Tom, I disagree, while no one specified poly files, no one should have to…every film I’ve been a part of has produced poly files without the need to be told. As a previous poster said,  "If there is a standard, it's wav poly files."   However, it’s a moot point because with his setup, he can’t deliver them anyway.  Lesson learned, I will make this abundantly clear for future productions.

 

Wandering ear, that software sounds like the solution, thank you.

 

With all due respect Joe, I think that if you want poly files, you really DO need to make that point clear up front.  If you get hired onto a project after the fact and the files are mono, there is nothing wrong with that.  It is in fact one of the two standards that exist, the mixer didn't do anything wrong (at least with respect to the question of mono vs poly), like your wording seems to indicate.  This is just my opinion, of course and I'm not a post guy by trade either.

 

The curiosity is killing me, though, what was used for location sound capture?  Was it an MBOX and a Pro Tools system or something?

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The lesson is.... for anyone, no matter the job or the size of it....  at LEAST make sure there is a phone call, email or a meeting  so everyone is on the same page...  If only Camera sound and editor, so be it...otherwise there is ROOM for mother trouble to pop her head in the door...

or get something like this... sent to me today...

  

  Notice though that this does not state POLY!!!!    

 

   And it asks for 16bit..  WTF...  and this is for a show next week!!!  not something 6 years ago.. I have not used the 16 bit setting in a long long time...

  

   Transfer to DVDs... not me...LOL...  Ok, maybe at double time... I havn't burned one in a few years... probably not me...

 

 

 

Syncing multiple cameras and/or audio recorder
(This section applies whenever shooting multi camera or using separate field recorder)
1) Please use a separate timecode generator and jam sync the timecode to all cameras
and/or audio recorder.
2) All sound files should be stamped with timecode for automated syncing
All scenes should be properly marked/slated for video and separate audio
• Slate should contain info: scene, take, and camera # if using multiple cameras.
• Smart slate time code will match the time code of the audio files.
• Smart slate timecode must be visible at the beginning of each video clip for proper audio
syncing.
• All audio files should be marked with a corresponding video clip.
File Redundancy
1) Please transfer all source prores 4444 or Raw files to hard drives with the firewire ports
2) Maintain all source file structures as dictated by the camera
3) Production should keep a separate copy of original files in the event damage occurs in
transit.
Dailies & Transcoding
1) All Raw or prores 4444 log-c files should be converted to Prores 422 (proxy) Quicktimes
(with LUT applied if available)
2) Framerate should match source
3) Resolution should be 1920 x 1080
4) Prores 422 (proxy) files will have corresponding timecode and filenames to prores 4444
camera files.
5) Dailies must be synced with production audio.
Transferring Production audio to DVDs (if using separate field recorder)
1) All sound files should be .wav (or .bwf) files stamped with timecode for automated
syncing
2) All sound files should be 48 kHz and 16 bits
3) All sound files should be transferred to data DVDs
4) Label all DVDs with the framerate / bitrate / samplerate at which the sound was recorded.
5) If any sound has been recorded wild, please be sure to transfer this wild track to a
separate DVD labeled "wildtrack"
Stills
If stills are being taken, either for reference or for use in the offline or online, please alert
PS260. Please place all stills that are actually intended for use into specially marked
folders on the provided drives. Please organize folders by their use (folder for reference
stills, folder for content UI, folder for VFX elements, etc). If stills are shot RAW (Canon 5d,
Nikon d3, etc) please include folders of the RAW files and corresponding folders of
converted JPEG reference files.

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The curiosity is killing me, though, what was used for location sound capture?  Was it an MBOX and a Pro Tools system or something?

 

from what I was able to understand he is using a mixer but recording into Pro Tools?    He is not using a 788T or anything. 

 

He said he could export OMF's and that will bring in the files from 1 take. I guess we will see. 

 

OMFs are also just session data. Basically it just states where on a timeline which part of which clip should sit - in the "embedded OMF" version it's a big file that includes the audio files, but will deflate on import to session data and files.

 

WaveAgent looks like the way to go - and if he used that certainly unusual system, he might consider assembling his files for you. Hopefully the files are TC stamped and TC was synced for sound and cameras.

Actually, I doubt TC was synced...

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" he is using an unorthodox setup that is incapable of delivering polyphonic wav files. ... so this is really disappointing. "

" while no one specified poly files, no one should have to "

" Hoping to get some insight on the following "

"With it being recorded at 44,100, is that bad?
How big of a quality difference are we looking at vs 48,000?
Does the fact that it was recorded at 32bit, make the 44,100 superior to a 48,000 recorded at 16 or 24 bits?
"

I smell inexperience...

and, yes, I said: " your lack of experience... "

" Production sound files recorded at 4.1 are either a mistake or the work of someone with very little experience in video. "

plenty to go around...

" with his setup, he can’t deliver them anyway.  Lesson learned, I will make this abundantly clear for future productions. "

but he was cheap...

it takes years of experience to get years of experience...

" WaveAgent looks like the way to go "

it is a free program experienced professionals have been using for years...

and of course you are on the clock while dealing with the situation production sent you...!

and this was/is a learning experience...

 

 


 

it takes years of experience to get years of experience...

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There is an aspect to the decision to use mono files or poly files that I've not seen addressed in this discussion.

 

As I understand the process (and computer minutia is a little outside my comfort zone), mono files are an inherently faster mirror process. With a poly file, if the recorder must abandon the mirroring to go into record, the whole unfinished file, potentially 6 or 8 or more tracks, is discarded. When the mirroring process resumes, the recorder must pick up from the beginning of the take and re-mirror the whole file. This continues until there is sufficient "test" or "pre-record" time to complete all the tracks in that take.

 

With mono files, each track is an individual file. If tracks 1 - 3 are mirrored when one must interrupt the mirroring to go into "record," the mirroring can subsequently pick up at track 4. Much less time is lost to mirror-copying the same file over and over.

 

Because of this, almost all my deliveries of ISO tracks the last few years have been mono files. Actually, it's been a mix - I provide one folder with a two-track mix (almost always two identical tracks) as a poly file and another folder with the ISO tracks as mono files. I've not heard a word of complaint or confusion. Maybe editorial is just using the poly mix and not looking at the ISO files; I don't know.

 

My production work over the last few years has been less and less and the occasions have been largely day-playing rather then whole projects. Sometimes I'm given delivery specs but mostly not. Others may have different experiences but I've not had any difficulty with the mono file delivery for ISOs. I reason that if they have to go back to the ISO tracks, they can sort out the details.

 

David

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There is an aspect to the decision to use mono files or poly files that I've not seen addressed in this discussion.

As I understand the process (and computer minutia is a little outside my comfort zone), mono files are an inherently faster mirror process. With a poly file, if the recorder must abandon the mirroring to go into record, the whole unfinished file, potentially 6 or 8 or more tracks, is discarded. When the mirroring process resumes, the recorder must pick up from the beginning of the take and re-mirror the whole file. This continues until there is sufficient "test" or "pre-record" time to complete all the tracks in that take.

With mono files, each track is an individual file. If tracks 1 - 3 are mirrored when one must interrupt the mirroring to go into "record," the mirroring can subsequently pick up at track 4. Much less time is lost to mirror-copying the same file over and over.

Because of this, almost all my deliveries of ISO tracks the last few years have been mono files. Actually, it's been a mix - I provide one folder with a two-track mix (almost always two identical tracks) as a poly file and another folder with the ISO tracks as mono files. I've not heard a word of complaint or confusion. Maybe editorial is just using the poly mix and not looking at the ISO files; I don't know.

My production work over the last few years has been less and less and the occasions have been largely day-playing rather then whole projects. Sometimes I'm given delivery specs but mostly not. Others may have different experiences but I've not had any difficulty with the mono file delivery for ISOs. I reason that if they have to go back to the ISO tracks, they can sort out the details.

David

What recorder are you referring to? On my nomad, mirroring will pause mid file when i hit record, then resume where it left off, not at the beginning of the file. On sd, they are created simultaneously rather than after.

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There's a lot of variables here.  Did production pay for 5 lavs or did the mixer only have the ability to bring on 2?  Many times wides are non-synch, and will be cut up with CU and reverses... 2 shot, 3 shot... I mean you could have a scene that stays wide and the action actually does ping pong without major camera moves or angle changes, wouldn't be the norm, but could see it happen.  I don't think you'll get an authoritative answer here in the manner you asking.  Ideally the whole scene would be done with a boom or dueling booms.  Lavs are primarily used in narrative as problem solvers, not as the default strategy by most/many/some mixers.  Senator?... [cue]

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