Camera at 47.952 vs. 48 "HFR"

[RPSharman]

Hello,

Embarking on a new movie, which will at times choose to shoot "HFR" (48 for 24) for a specific look.

The DP doesn't want to involve post yet in the discussion (if ever).

We agree no to change my frame rate, so he can go in and our of it without thinking too much about it. He is wondering what, if any, is the standard. 47.952fps or 48fps. Shooting Alexa.

Robert

[studiomprd]

" The DP doesn't want to involve post yet in the discussion   (if ever)."

 

workflow test ?

Edited November 5, 2013 by studiomprd

[Mark Orusa]

Not that this establishes a standard, but The Hobbit was shot at 47.952: 

 

Doesn't want involve post yet? That's crazy talk  .

 

Mark O.

[John Blankenship]

The HFR rate should be twice your standard rate (i.e. 23.976 & 47.952 ...or... 24 & 48).

[RPSharman]

That's what I told him.

I think he's just exploring the idea, and doesn't want a HUGE discussion with dozens of studio people if he decides not to do it.

[studiomprd]

95.904

[Marc Wielage]

Doh, HFR is so stupid. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist! I hope they have a workflow fully prepared and planned. They really should talk to their post house and make sure they have a plan to get to the finish up front.

 

It always amused me that The Hobbit was completely edited and synced up in 23.98, and they only went to 48fps at the very end of the project -- as I understand from this article on editor Jabez Olssen:

 

http://www.postmagazine.com/Publications/Post-Magazine/2012/December-1-2012/Edit-This-The-Hobbit.aspx
 

However, according to Olssen, the Avid editing was done entirely in 2D at 24fps. Jackson’s Park Road Post would “digital telecine” all the original footage into graded Avid DNxHD files at 24fps. “So the editing room had normal Avid footage just like any other film.” As needed, Park Road Post would conform scenes in 3D at 48fps and screen them in 2K 3D at 48fps in a full-size digital theater. 

 

That also means every bit of sound had to be manually edited by eye, because there's no 48/47.952 SMPTE timecode yet. My understanding is that these are being worked on, but I bet it'll be at least another year before the standard is ready, and then several more years before all the equipment firmware is updated to be able to use HFR timecode.

 

I think that HFR is kind of a folly and a detour -- I personally don't think it adds anything positive to a feature film. I have no problems with it for certain things, like special venues (theme parks) and so on. In features, my reaction is kinda "eh," which I think was also the reaction of most theater owners and the audience. I don't think the HFR screenings added anything significant to the box office in the end.

[studiomprd]

HFR = style over substance ?

[RPSharman]

The idea on this movie, is that this is for a fantasy sequence. It needs to cut with the actual non-fantasy sequence. They plan to do wet-downs and light the sets differently, but they thought of HFR instead of some filter or color timing.

[Tony Johnson]

Doh, HFR is so stupid. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't /i]

 

That also means every bit of sound had to be manually edited by eye, because there's no 48/47.952 SMPTE timecode yet. My understanding is that these are being worked on, but I bet it'll be at least another year before the standard is ready, and then several more years before all the equipment firmware is updated to be able to use HFR timecode.

 

Yes and the other thing we found was that there was a 1 to 2 frame discrepancy between cam, fusion and slate timecode which was never resolved hence everything synced manually.

Tony

[John Blankenship]

From what I've seen, HFR creates a heightened clarity, and therefore, a heightened reality -- sorta the opposite of fantasy. It sounds to me like someone decided they want to be trendy cool, and figured this would be a good way to do it.

Have they thought of shooting the fantasy scquences on... oh, what was that stuff called?... oh yeah... FILM.

[Marc Wielage]

Yes and the other thing we found was that there was a 1 to 2 frame discrepancy between cam, fusion and slate timecode which was never resolved hence everything synced manually.

 

I don't doubt it. I think when you have to rely on the accuracy of the clock crystal within each camera, it can definitely vary a frame here or there. It's a miracle it worked at all and so well! The Hobbit looked and sounded brilliant, and I'm eagerly anticipating Desolation of Smaug (movie 2). 

 

 

From what I've seen, HFR creates a heightened clarity, and therefore, a heightened reality -- sorta the opposite of fantasy. It sounds to me like someone decided they want to be trendy cool, and figured this would be a good way to do it.

Have they thought of shooting the fantasy scquences on... oh, what was that stuff called?... oh yeah... FILM.

 

I think trying to do 3D in film is a losing proposition at this point. Mr. Jackson has explained that he saw motion blur problems in 3D that could be solved by the higher frame rate. The only problem for me is that it's a 3-steps-forward/2-steps-back solution, where it solves some problems but introduces new ones. Given that the first movie still made a billion dollars, I think in the end, audiences didn't care either way about the frame rate and just went for the story, the characters, and the spectacular visuals.

[Tony Johnson]

I don't doubt it. I think when you have to rely on the accuracy of the clock crystal within each camera, it can definitely vary a frame here or there. It's a miracle it worked at all and so well!

Indeed Marc. In the end we decided it had to be the timecode in the Epic. We were generating the master code from an Evertz timecode generator but of course the cam code would take over after the initial stamp on the first frame. this is where my very un scientific theory is and also accepting I am no technical genius, not even close - but because the cam is at twice speed is there a chance the timecode stamp falls at a different place on initial start up? I don't know, or is it just that Red timecode is unstable. I have not worked with the Epic on a Film at 23.976 so have nothing to compare to.

Tony

[John Blankenship]

...or is it just that Red timecode is unstable.

...

Yes.

[Marc Wielage]

Indeed Marc. In the end we decided it had to be the timecode in the Epic. We were generating the master code from an Evertz timecode generator but of course the cam code would take over after the initial stamp on the first frame. this is where my very un scientific theory is and also accepting I am no technical genius, not even close - but because the cam is at twice speed is there a chance the timecode stamp falls at a different place on initial start up? I don't know, or is it just that Red timecode is unstable. I have not worked with the Epic on a Film at 23.976 so have nothing to compare to.

 

My memory is that when a Red Epic is in any frame rate different from the project setting -- and I think you get a choice of a 24fps project, a 23.98fps project, a 25fps project, a 29.97fps project, or a 30fps project -- then it ignores all timecode coming in and just starts everything at 00:00:00:00. Every clip has a unique name, so it's technically not a problem for post. 

 

I wish there was such a thing as 48-frame timecode, but we don't gots it yet. By the time we do, there'll be nutcases shooting 240fps and 50 megapixels and complaining because we don't have 240fps timecode. 

[BAB414]

On 11/24/2013 at 3:31 AM, Marc Wielage said:

 

My memory is that when a Red Epic is in any frame rate different from the project setting -- and I think you get a choice of a 24fps project, a 23.98fps project, a 25fps project, a 29.97fps project, or a 30fps project -- then it ignores all timecode coming in and just starts everything at 00:00:00:00. Every clip has a unique name, so it's technically not a problem for post. 

 

I wish there was such a thing as 48-frame timecode, but we don't gots it yet. By the time we do, there'll be nutcases shooting 240fps and 50 megapixels and complaining because we don't have 240fps timecode. 

Here we are 7 years later. Any 48fps yet?