mross Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 I'm going to be doing location sound for a doc this month. They will be shooting at 23.98, and editing at 23.98 in FCP 7. I have done some searching on this group forum and it seems the recommended is to set my recorder (SD 664) at 23.98 as well. My plan is to jam 2 Denecke SB-3 from the 664, and have the boxes dials turned to 23.98 as well. Then lock to them to Cam A and Cam B to feed the timecode. Are these the proper settings to ensure good sync in post? The reason I am unsure is because a local veteran recommended 29.97 setting on the 664 when shooting 23.98, referencing this chart: http://www.aaton.com/files/avid-recording-rates.pdf I tried using this setting recently but the camera wouldn't accept the timecode so I switched to 23.98 In post there were sync issues, which could have been caused by the diva complex camera-crew who refused to have a timecode box on their set up. or the fact they had an inexperienced editor, so I'm just not sure what's right. Thanks in advance for any confirmations/suggestion that can help clear all this up for me!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Like you said, set everything to 23.976 (23.98 is just a shorthand way of stating 23.976) and feed the cameras time code from the SB3s. If the camera guys refuse to allow sync boxes on the cameras, politely ask the producer if he has the budget to fix the camera's out of sync files in post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 If the camera crew refused the sync boxes (it happens) then you have plausible deniability re sync issues and should inform the producer of same. We can't help them with sync if they won't let us. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mross Posted November 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Thanks, I assume it was not having a sync box on the camera that cause the sync issues, i'll know how to handle it from now on. Would there be a situation where camera is shooting at 23.976 and I would have to be set at 29.97 like it is shown in the PDF i linked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Absolutely agree with Philip and John. Sync Boxes are a must to keep accurate sync. Have this discussion with post supervisor beforehand. Therefore it comes from post and the cameraman can't do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Thanks, I assume it was not having a sync box on the camera that cause the sync issues, i'll know how to handle it from now on. Would there be a situation where camera is shooting at 23.976 and I would have to be set at 29.97 like it is shown in the PDF i linked? It could very well be. Even the most stable cameras (Alexa) get TC burps once in awhile, so the Lockit/SBT is there for insurance. On other cams (esp RED) they are a necessity if TC sync is needed at all. Re the 23.98/29.97 thing, I guess there could be some workflows that might still want it, but for many years the norm has been to set audio TC to whatever frame rate the camera is shooting. If what is wanted is something other than that then post should be telling you this before the shoot. Note that the date of that chart is 2004..... philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 "If what is wanted is something other than that then post should be telling you this before the shoot." In writing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 I always tell the producer that sync box are a necessity and if they are not on the camera at all time then I am not responsible for sync. I also remind everyone that I am technically only required to sync my audio recorder to one camera. Syncing two camera is not about syncing audio to video but syncing two camera together. I do it as it gives me more rental fees but it means that I need the camera department cooperation or I simply don't do it. When the cameramen whines about the sync box, I told him I could replace it with either two wireless receivers or a multi pair cable, conversation ends usually right there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 Would there be a situation where camera is shooting at 23.976 and I would have to be set at 29.97 like it is shown in the PDF i linked? Timecode in the matters of sync sound can get very complicated very fast. I've been studying and learning about it for about 1.5 years now, and as far as I'm concerned, I have only scratched the surface. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, you would set your recorder to 29.97 when you are dealing with NTSC video, independent of whether they shoot in 29.97 or 23.976. Nowadays, however, we deal with "HD" video, in which case, if they shoot in 23.976, we record as well in 23.976. Regardless, it's always a good idea to confirm your timecode settings with Post, and get it in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 4, 2013 Report Share Posted November 4, 2013 when in doubt: workflow test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand, you would set your recorder to 29.97 when you are dealing with NTSC video, independent of whether they shoot in 29.97 or 23.976. Nowadays, however, we deal with "HD" video, in which case, if they shoot in 23.976, we record as well in 23.976. It depends! Who's still shooting NTSC 525 video today? When you can do HD in a $50 phone, what's the point? When you can't even buy a 4x3 standard def set, why bother? It's easier at this point to shoot HD 16x9, then mask it off to 4x3 and degrade it if you needed to "simulate" the look of an old standard def video clip, if you really needed that look. But yes, standard def NTSC 525 was 29.97 timecode, non-drop or drop-frame. 1080i HD, often used for American broadcast TV, is also at 29.97. HD in North America and Japan is generally 23.976 (commonly called "23.98"), and some European countries shoot HD at 25fps. As The Senator says above, a workflow test is always recommended. Shoot 5 minutes picture and sound, clap the slate at the head (preferably a timecode slate), wait five minutes, clap at the tail, then take the files into your NLE of choice -- even a laptop would be fine -- and see if the material stays in sync for five minutes. If it does, chances are you're fine. The exception would be a multicamera shoot, a 3D shoot, or takes longer than (say) 15-20 minutes, which will most likely drift without external reference in some cases. And yet I've done live concert or lecture shoots where we had 1-hour takes that were golden, so a lot depends on the stability of the cameras in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Thanks for the explanation! It does help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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