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Recording a single violin player


JensF

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Hi guys! This is my first post here after a year or so as a "lurker" so bare with me.

I tried finding a thread discussing this, but couldn't. Please correct and redirect me if there is one already. 

 

I am doing an interview in a couple of week, nothing special there, but as part of the interview there is also going to be a performance from a single violin player. I dont know if a stand with a stereo pair would be preferred or if I should get some clip on mic for a more discrete solution.

 

I would love if some of you could share some knowledge and help me avoid some potential pitfalls if you have any experience with this sort of thing.

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If you're in a nice sounding space, you could use a stereo pair to get the sound of the instrument in the room.

You could use the boom mic you're using to do the interview (if that's how you're going with the interview).

You could mic the instrument (DPA make a great mic for this).

 

If it was me, and the space was good, I would boom it and get a stereo ambience, maybe. You can always add reverb in post.

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I'm not taking my clothes of with you, nor getting to close to any bears :) .........

But you could look at what DPA have to offer for high quality relatively discrete mic'ing.

Nothing much to be gained from stereo, unless you want the opportunity to introduce the acoustic of the space in a controlled way with MS perhaps?

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Application-Guide/Violin.aspx

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" I dont know if a stand with a stereo pair would be preferred or if I should get some clip on mic for a more discrete solution. "

me either...

That is difficult to say, as there are hundreds (at least) of possibilities, and you have provided so little information.

There are, BTW, lots of books about microphones, and techniques, and with experience, folks decide for themselves what works for their individual specific needs.

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I've never been a fan of mics directly on a wooden instrument such as a violin, cello, etc. To my ear that technique is extremely abrasive. Extremely close micing like that is useful in a live situation where sound reinforcement/PA system is in use as it reduces the chance for feedback. But, in your situation I would opt for a stereo pair or even just a single mic roughly 3-5 feet back from the player. Reverb can be added later or if the acoustic space you're in is particularly interesting then also record stereo ambience at a distance. If you're too close with stereo mics AND a source mic you'll get phasing the more you blend the two.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Film, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

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I've only done a little recording of violins, and those were seat-of-the-pants situations. I'm no expert, but the DPA bridge (and what I presume is Rode's knockoff of the DPA) look good to me. However I'd guess it'd be a better solution for a group/ensemble situation where you want to isolate the violin from other instruments/noise; like a bluegrass group…and you're going to get a physical sound, with perhaps more of the player's interaction with the instrument; if that what you want, cool. I could be wrong here. I like a little space/room around a solo instrument…seems like you get more of the instrument that way along with some room. I've used a single Schoeps 4 with acceptable results, and a pair of some Rode mics (sorry, NT5 maybe?) mainly because that's what I was handed (I was the best available guy to help out).

 

But even if you think mounting a mic on the violin is the way to go, bring a mic that doesn't need to touch the instrument or strings. Lots of musicians don't want anything touching their instruments, and classical string players ime are especially persnickety. Frankly, that's a reasonable position, considering the value of their instruments and the importance of those instruments to their lives. So just have a plan B and perhaps a plan C.

 

Have fun!

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Thanks guys, your responses are great! I think I'll use the opportunity to try out both the lav on the violin and a mic to pick up more of the ambience. Ill try to keep it simple and do a mono mic. Probably the mic i'm using for the interview. Maybe i'll even get some of that experience senator keeps talking about.

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I will "third" Matthew's comment exactly.  Most close miced violins will need their upper mids Eqed down.   A good boom mic at 3 to 5 feet will give you a much more natural and pleasant sound.

 

Check out this short biographical video about a Governor General Award winning violinist  I worked on a few months ago for the Canadian National Film Board.

The kid playing violin was miced in a kitchen that didn't sound great, and I had to stay fairly close to the violin (about 2.5 ft).  The later adult playing had the mic much higher, probably about 5 ft.   The transition in sound between the two instruments is pretty striking.

 

http://lisajackson.ca/Governor-General-s-Award-Video

 

Cheers,

Brent Calkin

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Biggest factor is player / instrument.  Second biggest factor is the room that will be used for the performance.  Since you don't have any control over those two K.I.S.S.

 

Stereo setups are great, but really only work properly when the room they are placed in sounds good.  It can be a simple setup, so would't hurt to bring a stereo rig, but don't expect it to be your #1 option.

 

If you IV mic is a hyper or cardiod, sounds like the best candidate for an accent mic.  That plus a room mic blended in for atmosphere (or the stereo rig) mixed to pleasure would be my approach.

 

When it comes to acoustic instrumentation - you probably don't want to get too close - bridge pickups and mounts are exactly as mentioned, more appropriate for PA situations where gain before feedback is a concern.  On the other hand, it could provide a sense of intimacy to the instrument which might be fitting for the interview type of environment, but when it comes to absolute musicality of the recording, close-micing would not be recommended.

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Yes, I second Tom and Matthew (fourth). The lav on the violin is a waste of time. It's to close, the instrument need to "develop" its sound. You'll pick up a lot of the bowing noises, as well as the finger tapping. only even consider this when no mics may be seen.

The "sweet spot" of the violin is actually underneath the instrument, so that would be a good mic position, but only if the player sits down (unlikely). Otherwise, get a mic above the player, and not too much in front of them. If your boom mic is a shotgun, I'd recommend bringing a more open mic, like a cardioid or maybe even an omni. I wouldn't bother with a stereo rig. Anyway, experiment with different mic positions and be sure to let us know how it went

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there are lots of good suggestions.

 

if it's not quiet, a good hypercardioid 1m up, and 1m in front of the violin - can really make a violin sound good.

if it is quiet (and also a nice sounding room) use an omni or a cardioid.

 

a little distance lets it breathe.

 

if you want (if it sounds good) blend the boom mic and the lav the person will already be wearing.

 

 

hvis du vil gjerne ha noen mer tilførsel, du må bare skriv her, men det er ikkje vanskelig - hører bra, og det er fint.

 

hvor er du fra? der er ikkje så mange norsk folk her....

 

lykke til!

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I'll second, third, and fourth those who spoke in favor of using the interview boom mic to also record the violin. PLEASE don't mount a lav mic (or, in the case of DPA what they refer to as a "miniature mic") on the violin unless it is necessary to control feedback in a speaker system or overcome severe ambient noise.

 

I love lavs for a number of uses, but the scenario you described is far from any of them. My previous career included playing professionally in symphony orchestras, and I have recorded a lot of classical music. Mounting a lav mic on a violin will result in a sound that is not true to the design of the violin when compared to a reasonably positioned mic such as the overhead boom you will hopefully use to record the voice of the person being interviewed. Plus, a lav mic mounted on the violin will not reproduce a sound that is consistent with the perspective of the video picture, which is a primary consideration when recording sound for picture.

 

I was at a scoring session last week at 20th Century Fox studios. Like most of the wind instruments, the violins were miced with cardioids and supercardioids such as Schoeps from a distance of about 6 feet or more. Granted, the studio is superbly designed for recording strings, and there were several violins per microphone; but the reasoning is the same: Place the mic in a way that replicates the perspective of someone nearby in the room (this is very generalized, of course, but hopefully the point has been made).

 

Glen Trew

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I think the idea of a lav-like mic on the instrument is when they are trying to isolate instruments in a crowd, or need to amplify it compared to other instruments (like maybe in a country band).

As long as it's not a camera conflict, a single nice cardioid or hyper would probably sound the most natural. If everyone is playing nice, you could always try to also mount a lav and pick the better sounding one. My friend has a mic for her violin, but she used to play it loud and distorted in a metal band.... Very different situation.

I wouldn't see any need for stereo. I know some classical music fans that think a whole orchestra should be recorded with one perfectly placed mic in an optimum concert hall. This is something where you get to be a little creative, because there are a few "correct" ways to do it.

Enjoy!

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if you NEED to use a lav/wireless system for picture reasons, there is a technique that will give you a much better sound than actually mounting the mic on the instrument - placing the lav on the player's head, in the hairline like a broadway show (or less optimally on the shoulder on their bowing side) gives a bit more distance for the sound of the instrument to develop. DPA 4060s are the best capsule for this. Placing the same DPA on the instrument, using the DPA string mount, or Blutac is really a desperation measure for live sound reinforcement when feedback is an issue, or for separation when you are recording a String section in close proximity to a rock band. It's useable, but as others have said, not really the true sound of the instrument.

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hvor er du fra? der er ikkje så mange norsk folk her....

 

Hei! Holder til i Lillehammer for øyeblikket. Gøy å se noen skrive norsk her!

 

 

I have access to a couple of DPA 4011 so i'll bring those with me if visible mics is not a problem (does any of you have experience with that mic?). If mic in the shot is not wanted i'll try putting it on the boom.

 

 

 

Biggest factor is player / instrument.  Second biggest factor is the room that will be used for the performance.  Since you don't have any control over those two K.I.S.S.

This is good advice. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope the player and room is good and come prepared.

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Hi Jence,

 

I play viola and record so hope I can help.

 

A DPA 4060 behind the bridge (or 4061 or if necessary 4071) will sound very good on the instrument. DPA make a little rubber mount to hang the mic in this position beneath the strings, and its cheap not a specialist item if you've a DPA stockist near you in time. Like has been mentioned, a close mic in this position sounds 'harsh' in comparison to a room mic but if you're recording a good player it will sound good nevertheless. If you already have a DPA 4060 lav, this is a good solution: another lav mic will be as good as the mic allows. DPA also make a similar priced violin mic ... but I reckon it's probably no advantage over a 4060.

 

The better solution would be to replicate the standard miking of a soloist: the mic should point towards the body of the instrument. Try to get the mic 1.5m or further away from the instrument - any closer and it will be harsh compared to the mix of room sound, but it depends on the room how far you want to get away. (Remember in a hall the audience hears the instrument with a strong mix of the hall ... but its also much easier to add reverb than get rid of it so I'd always err toward mic sound). Try to get a good solid stand with a good high boom arm, to keep the mic high enough to suit how you're filming and how it looks.

 

The classic dialogue interior mics - Schoeps MK4 or 41, Sennheiser MKH 40, 8040, 50, 8050 - all sound excellent on the instrument, so if you use these already don't go looking for an esoteric alternative (they are music mics as much as film mics as it is). Don't use shotguns obviously.

 

Not really sure what you're doing and if you'll need or want to record stereo, but if you do, two of the above, slightly spaced and narrow angle between the capsules (ie both pointing toward the instrument rather than opposite walls away from it) would probably be best, and preferable to me than M-S unless you had a good broadcast reason to give them that.

 

That's pretty simplified advice, but hopefully puts you on the right track ... you're not doing a classical recording. You'll hopefully be able to tell when you get to the venue (and choose the camera positions) what your options actually are for a mic placement.

 

Hope it helps a bit at least!

 

Jez Adamson

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