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Ben

Zaxcom AES outputs?!?!?!

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Ben   

So here is a something that has been puzzling me for a little while, despite my best efforts with google JW search and the Nomad manual - 

 

How the hell do I bus and get AES out of a Nomad? do I have to build a DB-15 to XLR breakout cable? (I am not very practiced with a soldering iron) How about in the bus routing menu?

 

The reason I ask - I was geeking-out over my friends F-5 the other day and I noticed that the XLR inputs had the usual LINE/MIC/+48 switches, but they also had Analog/AES switch. This in-and-of-itself is not amazing, but I started thinking about sending up to 4 separate tracks to the camera with my existing break-away cable and how happy that would make post. 

 

Is my understanding of AES skewed (naïve)?

 

Do I really need to use a breakout cable? Why does the Nomad need a breakout cable, but SD 664, 633, 788, etc. can route AES through the existing XLR outputs?

 

Wouldn't it be swell to keep an audio stream digital rather than going in and out of A/D-D/As?

 

Thank you,

Ben

 

 

 

 

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Ben   

hey Ben... As of a month ago, aes was not actually enabled on the F5.. so you might not need the cable until you confirm that it acutally is useable on the camera..

Yeah I know. But the firmware update is scheduled for release in December. I really want to know about how to route AES out of the Nomad? I feel like an idiot, because I feel like this should be simple. but the inter-webs have failed me as there is no company selling a AES break-out cable for the nomad. Does everybody who uses AES on Nomad build their own cable?

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You should reconsider sending four channels to a camera. If you can't monitor return four channels then it'll still be just two channels that you know and can stand by. 

 

There's been a lot of discussion about multitracking in the camera, and they all seem to end with there not being any real upside to doing it, other than making it easier for post but harder on yourself. Sure, you have all the tracks in your mixer and you're probably recording ISOs of each track, but still, if there's not a simple way of monitoring four return channels, I'd never send four channels to a camera. 

 

That said, the camera can still record four tracks of audio and benefit you; 

- Two channels from your mixer (Stereo mix or what have you) 

- Two channels from the camera mic, be it dual mono or stereo. The on camera mic can sometimes be a blessing in disguise. :)

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The usual suspects (pro sound, Gotham, etc) can make the cable you need if you are not up to making it yourself. As can our resident wiring expert Eric Toline.

I personally don't see the advantage of sending AES to a camera unless it is via a wireless unit: You would potentially have problems sending AES over a standard breakaway cable, and then only some cameras can accept AES anyways...

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I personally don't see the advantage of sending AES to a camera unless it is via a wireless unit: You would potentially have problems sending AES over a standard breakaway cable, and then only some cameras can accept AES anyways...

 

+2 / And...

You'll never get a cent more for your efforts and investment ..... NEVER EVER -

 

Trust us !!

 

MF

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Ben   

The usual suspects (pro sound, Gotham, etc) can make the cable you need if you are not up to making it yourself. As can our resident wiring expert Eric Toline.

I personally don't see the advantage of sending AES to a camera unless it is via a wireless unit: You would potentially have problems sending AES over a standard breakaway cable, and then only some cameras can accept AES anyways...

 

 

+2 / And...

You'll never get a cent more for your efforts and investment .....

 

Trust us !!

 

MF

Hi Greg and Mike,

I was really just wondering about how and whether it was possible, or if anybody has tried it.

The sony f-5 can (or rather will) accept 2 AES pairs

My friend owns an F-5 and we want to pursue a few personal projects (docs, shorts, etc. got to keep that creativity in shape)

 

As such, I must disagree, in part, with Mike's statement.

This type of set-up would be for personal projects

-> I will most likely be editing

   -> syncing multitrack audio to video is a time consuming chore

    ~~> time is money  

      ~~> I will get some sort of return on my investment (sort of)

 

Look, so my logic isn't bulletproof. I am just curious.

 

This is just a dream I have. Like having a good M/S set-up, or a Holophone, or a totally wireless rig with Zaxnet, and a million other things.

 

Can't a guy dream a little? 

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glenn   

Nomad AES outs are copies of the analog outputs. There is nothing to do except get a cable. Pro Sound in NYC can make it if you need one fast.

 

Be sure to have the latest Nomad software. There was a bug at one point that disabled the outputs.

 

We do not use the XLR connectors for AES in or out  because a separate connector allows both to be output at the same time. 

 

Glenn

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I've successfully sent AES to older Sony cans without issue over 25' breakaway cables and event with a 50' extension. I don't send 4-ch, but I figure if I'm getting improved fidelity by not using the cameras analog circuits, good incentive for me to go that route. The note on ability to monitor more than 2 ch is a good one.

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Hi Greg and Mike,

I was really just wondering about how and whether it was possible, or if anybody has tried it.

The sony f-5 can (or rather will) accept 2 AES pairs

My friend owns an F-5 and we want to pursue a few personal projects (docs, shorts, etc. got to keep that creativity in shape)

 

As such, I must disagree, in part, with Mike's statement.

This type of set-up would be for personal projects

-> I will most likely be editing

   -> syncing multitrack audio to video is a time consuming chore

    ~~> time is money  

      ~~> I will get some sort of return on my investment (sort of)

 

Look, so my logic isn't bulletproof. I am just curious.

 

This is just a dream I have. Like having a good M/S set-up, or a Holophone, or a totally wireless rig with Zaxnet, and a million other things.

 

Can't a guy dream a little? 

 

Sure you can dream! And if it works for you then it works for you! We're just giving you all the warning signs so you don't get bitten. 

 

And IMHO, syncing of image and audio is not a time consuming chore. Timecode gets more stable by the minute (figuratively speaking, not literally... eh... you get the idea) and there's PluralEyes and there's always wireless and whatnot. Again, whatever floats your boat...What's time consuming and potentially dangerous, is connecting a cable to a camera, running off chasing whatever and stumble or trip over the cable. Instead, you could've recorded dual system sending wireless TC or even just a hop, saved time and energy on set, drastically improving the quality of shots and flexibility between shooter and sound mixer. An editor will have time to press a button that says "Auto match". And occasionally look at sticks or other audio waveforms to match it with what's recorded on camera... Again, just my opinion. Have fun with AES!

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And IMHO, syncing of image and audio is not a time consuming chore.

This. As long as your editor knows what they're doing, then this process should be very automatic these days.

That said, do what you want. "Rules" are meant to be broken.

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daniel   

AES to camera: whats not to like?

Potentially lighter, cheaper cables. And with the 633 (OT) you could supply 2 (aes enabled) cameras with just the 2 XLR O/Ps. 

 

dan.

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I've sent AES to a Sony F800 over 50' breakaway cable, no problem. The best things about it are you only need one line and there are no levels to set! There is no crappy A-D conversion in the camera, no added limiting or distortion.

 

And it didn't cost me any extra - I built my own AES breakout cable to use with my QRX.

 

What's not to love about this setup?

 

Mark O.

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Not nothing to love, I'm all for aes as it being the signal.. What I'm talking about is sending me than two tracks to cam without being able to properly monitor it. I wouldn't do it, others might.

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Not nothing to love, I'm all for aes as it being the signal.. What I'm talking about is sending me than two tracks to cam without being able to properly monitor it. I wouldn't do it, others might.

 

You could probably just set up two return monitors, one for each pair. I think there is advantages to sending 4 tracks to cameras, such as a main mix (that every camera can get), and a second submix, dedicated just for what that camera is covering. Or whatever; possibilities are endless :P

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Mark   

Get yourself a de-embedder that outputs aes.

De-embed the four tracks on hd sdi output of the camera, depending on make of camera and available sdi outputs.

Aes in to mixer/recorder and set up headphone monitoring as you like.

Then you could listen to all tracks as a return.

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It's doable yes, but hardly convenient. I don't see any advantage to sending me than two tracks to camera other than helping post. And then it also depends on the shooting situation, I mean if the camera is still then yeah sure cable up and go, but if we're running around with four or more on screen talents, I don't see how aes can help me there. I can see how it would help post a little bit but not me and the shooter.

Multitracking and timecode is a better solution then.

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Yes, and if we're already multitracking in our mixers, why record more channels in the camera, where there is supposed to be a LR mix at best, for picture editors reference. The other iso tracks go to sound editor if applicable.

If anything, I'd charge more for recording more than two channels into camera, seeing as it's not my machine.

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Zack   

I just AES 1 pair per camera. You can get your rtn, you'll be able to let camera use on board mic for B-roll (so you can relax or go home), and you keep the prestige of multi-tracking.

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Only 1 AES send here. Technology is what it is. If multi-channel AES or embedded SDI was desired or in demand in the future, it's not up to us to determine workflow. Adapt or...

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" Why are some sound mixers pushing for us to make less money? "

I'm not getting on board for this one...

I'm with Tom:

I think that in a lot of situations this might be the right thing to do, and will become what the clients want and eventually expect, and we will charge accordingly.

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Mark   

I don't promote multitrack to camera, but if that's what they want, that's what they get.

I still get paid.

This has only occurred once in a static situation.

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