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Any Music Recordists Out There?


BAB414

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I record dialogue all the time but I have never recorded music before and don't really know the first thing about it. As a hobby, I'm going to be recording some music I've written for an album. While it's strictly a hobby, I do want to end up with something that sounds at least semi-professional. I won't need to record more than 2 sources at a time, so I was looking at the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. Does anyone know if the preamps and A/D converter will help me achieve "(semi)-pro" quality recordings? Can I plug an electric guitar straight in and "amplify" it digitally in the computer/interface?

 

I was looking into something like the SD USBPre or MixPre-D because of their USB interfaces but I'd rather not spend extra money.

 

For this reason, I was also planning on using some production mics instead of going out and getting nice large diaphragm Neumanns or something. This is the part that will make you cringe - can I get away with using something like AKG Blue Line mics (hypers and cardioids) or even a 416 for vocals or acoustic guitar?

 

I'll be doing the mixing and any effects in Reaper (that's the current plan anyway). Can Reaper handle the "midi" information or do I need some other software if I really want to do some midi editing?

 

Thanks so much,

Ben

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Your prod sound gear, from what it sounds like you have, will record your music just fine.  Given that stuff in use it will all be much more about performance, mic placement and the room you are recording in.  The 416 isn't the world's greatest instrument mic but it's ok if you have no $.  Your sig says you are in NYC--you can rent any mic you want there in any number fairly cheaply.  A Neumann KM100-series for the guitar (or 2), a U87 for your voice if you can afford the rental, the pre you mentioned sounds nice but your production mixer will work great too.  Reaper kicks ass.

 

philp

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I record music, my own and other peoples, as a hobby. I've even been paid a few times. I'm not familiar with the gear and mic's you're referencing, but the basic rules of recording voice and instruments are a lot alike. Experiment and have fun. Try different mic's you own, even the cheap ones like a sm57 or 58. You will only get better by doing it. At my home studio I use my old Cooper  mixer as my front end and then a Digi 003 rack in and out of my Mac running ProTools. It can sound decent. Good luck.

CrewC

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(Trying hard not to provide a senatorial reply) Apart from production sound, I record mostly classical music, but it seems like that's not what you're attempting to record. My pop music recording experiences were confined to my school days, but I'd say you can achieve decent results with the gear you listed. To achieve the sound you're after may turn out to be difficult, though, and take up a lot of post-production efforts. So I would second Phil's suggestion of renting a few great mics. This may do wonders to the sound. Even though you could perhaps get the same result with EQ, you might need a lot of time to get there. It probably helps to have a clear idea of the sound you're after, and then just spend some time trying to find out how to achieve it. When I was young(er) I recorded my band with just one dynamic mic - one instrument at a time, incl drums. Then I spent a long time finessing the sound in the computer, which seemed to take forever. But I did kind of like the end result (back then I did) Long way of saying: don't worry about the gear too much, the music's more important. Just play around with what you've got

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My main work is recording music.
 
Focusrite is a "NO NO" card, bad drivers and fair sound.
 
The SD USBPre is very nice, as well Apogee Duet II (Only Mac)
 
I'm happy with the Nomad for music recording
 
IMMO LDC (Large Diameter Condensers) only for very quiet sources, usually much better fidelity with a SDC such as Shoeps, DPA or Earthworks.
 
Better the blue line than the 416 for a guitar.
 
Good luck and enjoy
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Thanks for the great advice everyone, keep it coming!

 

Ramallo,

 

Do you track to the Nomad and then import the files or are you using the Nomad as your interface, outputting the audio directly to a computer (can the Nomad even do that?)? ...Speaking of which, could my 744 do that with the firewire? I think I remember hearing that was not possible for some reason. AES outs is an option but I would still need to adapt from BNC to USB or firewire (or ethernet?) in the end.

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Thanks for the great advice everyone, keep it coming!

 

Ramallo,

 

Do you track to the Nomad and then import the files or are you using the Nomad as your interface, outputting the audio directly to a computer (can the Nomad even do that?)? ...Speaking of which, could my 744 do that with the firewire? I think I remember hearing that was not possible for some reason. AES outs is an option but I would still need to adapt from BNC to USB or firewire (or ethernet?) in the end.

 

No, isn't my interface (The Nomad can't do that). The Nomad is for "all at the same time" recordings. For tracking is better a computer. 
 
The recorder that would act as pc interface is the new R88 from Roland.
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OK.

 

Yes, I'd like to track in Reaper.

 

So now I'm considering maybe using my 744 as the preamp and A/D converter, but then my dilemma becomes finding a cheap box or cable that can accept an AES signal and output to USB or firewire. I found this: 

 

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="

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FWIW I think one of the most important things to consider is the space that you are planning on recording in. Is it quiet? Does the room color the sound in a nice way?

Using your 744 or 552 SD preamps and going line out into a Zoom h4n (which can be used as an interface) would be similar to the results you get from the usbpre2 since IMHO a to d conversion with modern equipment has a whole lot less to do with quality than the preamps do. If you already have a zoom then you don't need to buy anything new at all. You could track right into Reaper, which is robust enough to handle anything, including midi if you want it.

As for mics, stop by sometime if you want to mess with some of ours-- we've got a great selection for music and you really should do some experimenting to figure out what you like best..

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I apologize in advance for what’s about to be my longest post ever.

 

Short version: 

Use what you have and be creative. The end result is all that matters. (See the Ray Charles quote in Jeff Wexler’s signature). An SM58 is $100 new and can (and has been used to) record great things. U2, Aerosmith, Bruce Springsteen and many others have used the SM57/SM58 for vocals, guitars, drums etc. and to my knowledge, nobody has ever returned one of their records to the store because of it.

A 416 is a good mic and can be used to record vocals. If placed right, you could absolutely record an acoustic guitar with it too. If given a plastic toy guitar, Jimi Hendrix would still have been brilliant. You get my point.

 

For pre-amp/converter, I think Apogee Duet is a fantastic value and it can certainly make professional grade recordings. It also allows you to bypass the mic-pre and use it as converter only, which allows you to put any mic-pre of your choice in front of it.

Yes, you can also plug the electric guitar straight into it. Personally, I do not like Amp Sims, and perhaps that’s just me. I would say that they have gotten better in the past couple years, but I  would recommend looking into Impulse Responses (IRs) of actual amps/cabinets. This however requires going thru a guitar pre-amp > line in on Duet.

 

————————

 

Long winded ramblings:

 

The "it depends" takes on a whole other dimension of meaning when it comes to music, as the variables are as many as the stars in the sky. What's the style of music? What instruments? Live drums? etc. Even with one instrument; what “sound” are you going for?

 

I admit to being a sound-nerd and gear-geek, but;

The performance and the song / composition are number one. In that respect, mics and pre-amps etc. are secondary on the list of important things for music (well… read on). Creativity, vision, experience, skills all far more important (again, read on). Things that have been considered "wrong" for sound at one point in time, have later become "groundbreaking" and eventually accepted as "standard" (distortion for example).

 

All that said (why I said read on), 

- if you record 30 tracks of acoustic guitars and vocals in an average bedroom, you are stacking 30x of potential outside noises that we normally consider bad for one dialog track (traffic, dogs, neighbor’s AC, fridge hum - you name it). 

 

Accumulation also happens with self-noise in mics and pre-amps and whatever else in your recording chain. When you add compression, all these issues are potentially magnified further. This is an example of where the “you get what you pay for” could start to reveal itself and the gear suddenly does matter (again, why I said read on). Furthermore, if your room is not acoustically treated, there is a good chance that some frequencies, due to reflections are exaggerated, while others may be diminished, resulting in the acoustic guitar sounding like a cardboard box, even tho you are using a sexy vintage $6000+ large diaphragm mic.

 

If you want to record pristine sounding instruments and vocals, ideally, you record at a professional recording studio purposely designed and built for it. A noise-pollution free oasis isolated from any unwanted sounds leaking in from the outside world, combined with the pleasing acoustics of a great sounding room (there is a whole science dedicated to the subject of how to build a room - angles, measurement ratios, materials, absorption, deflection and on and on). When you have that - that's when you would want to spend money on the microphones and pre-amps.

Here is where some would say that using your 416 is "wrong" and tell you that you must pick up a Telefunken C12 or Neumann U47 and go thru Neve or SSL consoles.

A contrasting example: 

For a client’s song earlier this year, I recorded an electric guitar part without plugging it in to an amp. 

Instead I attached a stethoscope onto the body of a Strat using gaff tape. On the other end (the ear-piece) I attached a Lav and plugged into a UM400 > UCR411 > SD442 > Apogee Duet > Logic. Is that the "best sound"? Perhaps not by standards of clean, wholesome and pristine audio, but I thought it was fun and added something cool and it worked really well for the tune mixed in with other “normal” guitars (after I removed some hiss, EQ'd, compressed, added a touch of other effects). Needless to say, it didn’t sound like a Strat, not even like an electric guitar. It had it’s own sound, which was what I was going for.

 

Mic placement is another very important thing, and to get it right comes with trial and error / experience. 

 

If you are still reading, I apologize for this longwinded rambling and hope it didn't cut into your time of recording tunes. 

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There's no rules. There's lots of good cheap gear out there. I don't think Presonus is horrible. The most important factor that you can control (meaning not the artist, instruments used, talent, etc...) is mic placement and the room.

You should definitely start out with some good cheap utility mics - something everyone should have. SM57, SM58, SM7B, RE20, MD421. Pretty much every professional studio you'll ever go to will have 4 out of 5 of the above mics, if not all of them.

Don't use crap preamps, but once you get to a certain level, there's not much overt difference between one and another. Most preamp "character" is mostly evident when the preamp is driven near the limit of its performance envelope. The studio I engineer out of has Neve 1073, API, SSL 4K, and my own personal Millenia Media units. Any preamp on professional location sound equipment is going to equal or exceed the quality of those from a noise, speed (slew), and frequency response. A little secret to good sounding pop music is that good sound does not equal to accurate sound. Vocals have honk. Percussion has distortion or dynamic envelope interactions. Classical, Jazz, world, or other heavily acoustic formats have vastly different characteristics and expertise in recording pop / rock may not translate to being a good studio or remote engineer for those types of performances.

Recording is about balance. Don't ignore the need to use acoustic treatments. Don't over-do it with traps or foam. Don't form opinions based upon the advice and words of others, especially from online forums, but utilize the vast amount of experience out there to try new things, but most importantly, record, record, record...

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Oh, my favorite "small" interface, Metric Halo ULN2.

Also, I think a lot of people just get an interface where instead, they would benefit much more from a mixer that also happens to have an audio interface built in. You might only need to record two sources now, but someday soon you'll try your hand at a rock drum kit (top snare, under snare, inside kick, outside kick, L tom, R tom, floor tom, L OH, R OH), or maybe even just something like a crossed stereo pair with an accent mic.

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" can I get away with using something like... "

of course...

you have already read a lot of fine comments, and some of them even restate my old saw that: it isn't about the arrows...

 

my quote of the day (week?): about mic's like SM-57/SM-58: " nobody has ever returned one of their records to the store because of it. "

or maybe this one: " A little secret to good sounding pop music is that good sound does not equal to accurate sound. "

" a Lav and plugged into a UM400 > UCR411 > SD442 > Apogee Duet > Logic. Is that the "best sound"? "

You should contact Lectrosonics (Larry, Bruce, Gordon) and see if they have a CD by Matt Robertson's ad-hoc group "The Gadflys", which was recorded 100% via wireless mic's...

 

" For both vocals and acoustic guitar, large diaphragm condenser mics. are best. "

but of course that is a generalised,  personal and subjective statement....

 

" to get it right comes with trial and error / experience."

so true...very, and completely true.

" Pretty much every professional studio you'll ever go to will have 4 out of 5 of the above mics, if not all of them. "

I believe AKG 414's should be on that list,

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As you can piece together from other's posts, this is greatly dependent on the style of music and instrumentation, as well as the location of your recording.

 

I would probably not use the same mic'ing techniques (or mics for that matter) for a pop band in a studio that I would use for a jazz quartet in a live venue or a classical/orchestral recording in a hall. Stereo vs. surround may also come into the equation. What are you looking to get out of this? What will the finished product be?

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