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Why Is Sound So Hard?


Marc Wielage

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I see, I don't know enough about the coloring process in post since I am focused on sound and am just scratching the surface of learning about cameras. I came to this view point through the indie student world, where I have seen dp's spend a lot of time setting up lights to get everything looking right for the DSLR, I would guess this is what you are saying about ideal situations? That they are spending all that time to compensate?

Thanks for the info, I learned a lot from the thread seeing production a little bit from the "other side of the isle" goes to show there is endless amounts of knowledge to learn and pick up. Having only worked with the Red a few times (and this was prior to me learning about timecode) we ran double system with a slate and it was a little indie production company that had just graduated out of school. Sync was no problem.

Great info everywhere, agian Thanks for this forum! It has pushed me forward so much!

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@Senator

Hahaha you bring up a good point, I would say the DP's that I worked with that took the time to make sure the lighting was correct would have stand ins, the funny part they weren't always the actors and skin complextion and height wasn't the sam, still better then no one I guess?

I have seen people spend lots of time lighting empty space and then everything changes once talent comes in, lol. This is why I have learn to wait until they are completly finished before I find my boom position.

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I recently spoke with a production about their film workflow when they were looking for a mixer to work with. They said they wanted to use the Epic because they "like to be able to punch in if they needed". I told them that due to the excessive noise that those cameras create, that they would need to do a lot of cleanup and re recording in post. Then I asked "Is the ability to fix your DPs mistakes worth ruining all your audio takes?" to which they had no answer.

 

I feel like they could have just as easily used a different 4K camera like the F55, but they were set on the RED "look", which I still don't understand. After coloring and everything, how much of that "look" is left? And wouldn't the lenses you use, the lighting you set up, and the DPs abilities/focus pullers skill dictate more about your picture than the sensor in a day and age where there is really little quality difference between sensors? Its not like using Neve mic pres for "warmth" in your sound vs using SSL for a "clean" sound which to my ears is clearly audible. Apples and oranges I know.... Just trying to wrap my mind around this one-way thought process people seem to have these days.

 

In any case, and I am sure 100% of you can agree, a good DP will do you far better service than a buzz-word camera.

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A side-note: the "punch-in" thing w/ 4K+ cameras is now an enshrined part of many workflows.  I have a few clients who shoot 2 Epics all the time, with the idea that the footage will be usable as a 4 camera shoot with punch-ins.  I guess I'd rather they did the punches than really have 4 Epics rolling in the same room....

 

philp

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I recently spoke with a production about their film workflow when they were looking for a mixer to work with. They said they wanted to use the Epic because they "like to be able to punch in if they needed". I told them that due to the excessive noise that those cameras create, that they would need to do a lot of cleanup and re recording in post. Then I asked "Is the ability to fix your DPs mistakes worth ruining all your audio takes?" to which they had no answer.

 

I don't think it's quite that bad. I do think it's wrong for them to go into production and assume they can constantly reframe without paying a price for it. You wind up with lots of shots with different kinds of sharpness and noise issues. I do think Red has worked very hard to try to bring the fan noise problem down, and it's much better now than it used to be.

 

 

I feel like they could have just as easily used a different 4K camera like the F55, but they were set on the RED "look", which I still don't understand. After coloring and everything, how much of that "look" is left? 

 

That's very true. I think if you stacked up a Red Epic, an Arri Alexa, and a Sony F55 in a row and then lit the scene exactly the same way, you could pretty much make them look identical in post. It does help if it's well shot. I think the cinematographer makes far more of a difference than the choice of camera. (A recent test post showing images from similar cameras was just posted to the Red User Group and abruptly removed. I'm just sayin'...)

 

There are presets and LUTs that Red will give you for post that create a certain look, but I know of some very, very A-list colorists who throw all that out and just start from scratch. Good people can make good pictures from damn near anything these days. The real look comes behind the guy making the decisions; the process is just like the guy listening and doing the mix. 

 

I know of quite a few cinematographers who are dismayed that the choice of camera is being taken away from them, and the producers and directors are buying into buzz words and getting specific cameras for non-technical reasons. I do think the Red Epic (and the new Dragon chip) can make great pictures in the right hands, but it's just another tool. And -- as my point above stated -- I don't think recording audio in camera is necessary or even a good idea most of the time. 

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I think if you stacked up a Red Epic, an Arri Alexa, and a Sony F55 in a row and then lit the scene exactly the same way, you could pretty much make them look identical in post. It does help if it's well shot. I think the cinematographer makes far more of a difference than the choice of camera. (A recent test post showing images from similar cameras was just posted to the Red User Group and abruptly removed. I'm just sayin'...)

 

There are presets and LUTs that Red will give you for post that create a certain look, but I know of some very, very A-list colorists who throw all that out and just start from scratch. Good people can make good pictures from damn near anything these days. The real look comes behind the guy making the decisions; the process is just like the guy listening and doing the mix. 

 

I know of quite a few cinematographers who are dismayed that the choice of camera is being taken away from them, and the producers and directors are buying into buzz words and getting specific cameras for non-technical reasons. I do think the Red Epic (and the new Dragon chip) can make great pictures in the right hands, but it's just another tool. And -- as my point above stated -- I don't think recording audio in camera is necessary or even a good idea most of the time. 

That might be why those who know how to use color correction tend to use Alexa for shooting.

Their priority is a fast and trouble-free workflow on location, good handling, stable TC, and no sound issues from a fan.

Arri's "shoot - edit" approach really seems to speed up (and cut the costs of) the image side of post production.

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That might be why those who know how to use color correction tend to use Alexa for shooting. Their priority is a fast and trouble-free workflow on location, good handling, stable TC, and no sound issues from a fan. Arri's "shoot - edit" approach really seems to speed up (and cut the costs of) the image side of post production.

 

It's true -- a lot of very big-budget American TV network shows shoot on Alexa with 444 QuickTime files, and they look fine on the air. Not only is it "just" HD 1080, it's slightly compressed. Looks fine, holds up very well, and you can slam the crap out of it in color correction and it still looks great. And the workflow is very fast: take the files out of the camera, copy them over to the Avid, and start editing immediately with no conversion. 

 

Red is extremely aware that they need to add a real-time QuickTime ProRes module. They announced one more than 18 months ago, they've shown some prototypes, but it never did ship. They had a "coming soon" spot for it on their website for sometime, but then it mysteriously disappeared. 

 

 

Marc: " I think the cinematographer makes far more of a difference than the choice of camera. "

that is a Tee-shirt

 

Maybe we need to say it this way:

 

The DP Makes the Difference...

not the camera.

 

And I truly, truly believe this. 

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I was just on a dual Alexa feature.  We shot 24 days and all I did was jam in the morning and at lunch (and if we ever changed frame rates).  Didn't have a single timecode drop the entire 5 weeks.

 

On the other hand, I've jammed a Red camera and then 45 minutes later, it's already dropped timecode.

 

Also, who the hell decided to use a 4 pin lemo for timecode on the Red.  That's just insult to injury right there!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm getting more and more (and more) people asking me to run sound straight into a 5D on low budget gigs.  It's making me crazy.  I always give them the same lecture which consists of blah blah..the 5D is not designed to be a film or ENG camera blah blah... and they almost always tell me about  the "last guy" that they worked with who got them "great" sound in camera.  I usually end up slapping an ERX on the thing just to make peace but I'm always worried that they'll use the in camera sound rather then syncing my recorded sound out of laziness and inexperience and that anyone who sees the film with think that I f@*#ed it up.

 

How do you guys deal with this scenario?  

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The same way you do, minus the lecture, and always with a recording made on my rig.  The camera sound I send them is always mono and usually mid-fi (like G2), while the recording I make is hifi and has split tracks.  They get both.  Which they use is down to the integrity and energy (read: lack of laziness) of their editor.   

 

philp

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mghough: " I'm always worried that they'll use the in camera sound rather then syncing my recorded sound out of laziness and inexperience and that anyone who sees the film with think that I f@*#ed it up. "

first, you may as well stop worrying, as "they" will!  ... and "anyone" won't

that is since it is their movie, and if they are happy with the sound on the camera, they will use it,  provide it if it is what they want, and deal with it.

the resulting movie will certainly have greater issues than any apparent issues with the quality of the sound recorded by the camera!

and no one will notice who you are from it, either.

 

Philip Perkins: " usually mid-fi (like G2), while the recording I make is hifi "

if they want their primary audio on the camera, I send them the best I reasonably can (their budget may be an issue)...

but I never intentionally degrade.  A lot of folks are providing double system audio from toys like the zooms, which may be individual tracks, but are otherwise not necessarily any much better than camera audio...

It is their movie!

and as I said (and this is probably more relevant) there will be other more significant and noticeable issues with their movie than the recording quality of the camera.

Edited by studiomprd
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mghough: " I'm always worried that they'll use the in camera sound rather then syncing my recorded sound out of laziness and inexperience and that anyone who sees the film with think that I f@*#ed it up. "

first, you may as well stop worrying, as "they" will!  ... and "anyone" won't

that is since it is their movie, and if they are happy with the sound on the camera, they will use it,  provide it if it is what they want, and deal with it.

the resulting movie will certainly have greater issues than any apparent issues with the quality of the sound recorded by the camera!

and no one will notice who you are from it, either.

 

Philip Perkins: " usually mid-fi (like G2), while the recording I make is hifi "

if they want their primary audio on the camera, I send them the best I reasonably can (their budget may be an issue)...

but I never intentionally degrade.  A lot of folks are providing double system audio from toys like the zooms, which may be individual tracks, but are otherwise not necessarily any much better than camera audio...

It is their movie!

and as I said (and this is probably more relevant) there will be other more significant and noticeable issues with their movie than the recording quality of the camera.

Disagree, you can go yr own way on this.  The DSLR rigs the folks I work with use won't tolerate a larger RX than a G2 size, and I only work cabled up if no one is moving (me, cam, talent)--no more behind-the-camera "waterskiing" for me.   The "fi" of the G2 is not affecting the audio as much as the "fi" of the camera (yes, I have tested this).   If they are ok with what the cam gets in this scenario then fine, if they want higher fi or split tracks then to my recordings they will go.   I am very aware of whose movie it is, thanks.

 

philp

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A lot of folks are providing double system audio from toys like the zooms, which may be individual tracks, but are otherwise not necessarily any much better than camera audio...

 

 

Depends on what they're shooting with. Assuming, of course, identical mics/mixers/boomer's skill.

 

I ran some more camera sweeps this summer, courtesy of the rental inventory at Talamas Co in Boston.

I didn't have a Zoom handy, so I measured my Tascam DR07 - a very similar, and similarly cheap, model.l

 

All minijack inputs measured through the same Beachtech DXA, sending line level (nominal -10 dBV) from Focusrite DAC.

Camera/recorder files were ingested directly as output.

All response re: 1kHz.

All noise re FS.

 

 

 

Canon 5D

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +1.06, -10.32   Noise level, dB (A): -69.4  

 

Panny HDX250

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.13, -2.11   Noise level, dB (A): -89.7

 

Tascam DR07

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.03, -0.10   Noise level, dB (A): -98.5
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Philip:

 

THD at nominal, other conditions as above

5D:   0.047%

C100:  0.028%

HDX:  0.047%

Tascam: 0.01%

​… in other words, nothing to worry about.

 

 

 

Senator:

 

It was a typo. I meant "Penny", for the J.C.Penny "Be A Film Director" Red-Colored* camera. 

(* - Part of the Martha Stewart collection.)

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I'm getting more and more (and more) people asking me to run sound straight into a 5D on low budget gigs.  It's making me crazy.  I always give them the same lecture which consists of blah blah..the 5D is not designed to be a film or ENG camera blah blah... and they almost always tell me about  the "last guy" that they worked with who got them "great" sound in camera.  I usually end up slapping an ERX on the thing just to make peace but I'm always worried that they'll use the in camera sound..

 

My rate card specifically states that unless the camera body itself offers full sized XLR inputs, that i will not do single system mixing. This saves me from having this conversation, sometimes from the producer moving on, and sometimes because they "get it", and have the budget to meet my double system rate. So long as they pay for double system, I'm okay with giving them a scratch track. Client happy = mission accomplished.

 

As for the bon mot of "the last guy"...oof. One of my most hated tactics. It's BS, and we all know it. If the "last guy" gave you what you wanted at the price you're willing to pay, then where the hell is he?

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Philip:

 

THD at nominal, other conditions as above

5D:   0.047%

C100:  0.028%

HDX:  0.047%

Tascam: 0.01%

​… in other words, nothing to worry about.

 

 

 

Senator:

 

It was a typo. I meant "Penny", for the J.C.Penny "Be A Film Director" Red-Colored* camera. 

(* - Part of the Martha Stewart collection.)

Are these figures you got yourself?  I ask because these devices sound noticeably worse than other gear with similar specs to my ears and in my listening tests.  Observer bias, partly maybe, but the differences were pretty obvious.

 

philp

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Philip,

 

These are figures I got myself, over the years, using a combination of test equipment (primarily either digital and analog Audio Toolboxes, and the Rightmark software).

 

But distortion is a sneaky thing. Aside from questions of 'what's nominal?', there's the more basic issue of what you're measuring. My tests have all been with a 1 kHz exciting signal, looking for harmonics and noise (see fig).

 

Tests at other frequencies, or sweeps, could reveal something else. And what you're picking up as a trained listener encountering these units in the field can be different from what the meter sees...

 

The only reason I like these measurements is that I can sort-of level the playing field, measuring every camera or recorder essentially the same way, ever since I started these readings in 2001. So I can make a sort-of meaningful comparison between a PD150 and a 5D, and also track how 'state of the art' has changed with each new generation of cameras. 

 

I can even compare today's gear with the analog stuff we grew up with, since back then, Nagra and Ampex and the other pro manufacturers published specs that were measured the same way. (Today the Zaxcoms and Sound Devices of the world are careful about issuing meaningful specs, but the camera and pocket recorder companies sure aren't.)

 

Your field experience might be totally different.

 

 

 

 

 

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