bmfsnd Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hi everyone, I'm looking towards joining the LA 695, but was wondering how payroll companies like EP report your job positions to the CSA. Let's say I want to join as a Utility, start from the bottom and hit the ground running, gaining experience and mentors. If my non-union credits have been all over the place, but always within the sound dept, will CSA only look for specifically "Sound Utility" credit days, or is there a way to encompass my total eligible non-union sound experience into the report (well over the requirement amount)? I know letters from the production company help, but most of these indie productions, as we all know, end their LLC immediately after the project ends. Anyway, I'm looking towards this step in my career, and appreciate any guidance. Happy New Year! Thanks, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Matt, this stuff has been repeatedly discussed here, and hasn't changed. ultimately, Contract Services will make their decision on what you submit. and you should talk to Scott at the Local for additional guidance... call sheets can back-up that you were in the sound department if the pay stubs are too ambiguous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 To answer your question, Matt, you are correct that Contract Services is looking for verification of employment in a specific classification and won't count the sum of all days worked in all sound categories. But.. after you've joined the Local, you can change your classification, so if it turns out the majority of your non-union days are as a Boom Op (which could easily be the case, since non-union jobs don't often have Utility) but you actually want to start your union days at the ground floor as Utility (which is a very good idea,) you can submit paper-work for Boom and then after a short time, reclassify as Utility. And while you're waiting to re-classify from Boom to Utility, you're free to work as Utility. Letters from production companies can be used for verification and they can even be submitted in the absence of check stubs... and even if the production company has disappeared you can still try to get a letter from the show's producer or director. They just need something to prove that you actually did the work you said you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 It depends on who you talk to and weather or not they like you. They can be lenient with working between classifications if they like you, or they can be strict if they don't. It's a cumbersome, idiotic, and very annoying process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 CC: " It's a cumbersome, idiotic, and very annoying process." and one can either deal with it, or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Childers Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hey Matt, I am in the same boat as you, I have talked to contract services (more than once) and they can be lenient on some stuff but they will deff not everything. I ve decided to hold off for that reason, but I wish you luck, and please if you find out other wise please let me know! Keep on keeping on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Not to blame the victim or side with the gate keepers, but if you can't get past Contract Services, your chances of making it in LA are questionable. C S & the business are not easy to do but doable nun the less. Gut it out and enjoy your new war story. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Dealing with Contract services can be a little like dealing with the DMV- except that the people in CS are at least nicer to talk to. I have hundreds of days work, yet CS at this time only recognizes 43 of them, despite me taking a huge folder of letters and paperwork to their office. Their take is that a letter or personal / company check could have been written by a friend saying you had worked when in fact you didn't. In the case of check stubs, for all they know you could have been cleaning their windows and asked them write 'sound' the check. Most of my work has been independent productions that haven't used a payroll company so It is very frustrating to not be able to prove my hours to CS in the way that they want them proved, but slowly my days are ticking up. It's just a case of hanging in and periodically submitting everything in the hope that some of the days will be counted. It does seem like they are getting stricter with their requirements these days. I have spoken to older mixers who got their days just by submitting call sheets, letters, and check stubs but in my experience this is no longer acceptable. I even had a payroll company queried because the production company only put 'Sound' in the job classification and not Sound Mixer. Contract services called me up to say that they couldn't count those days as they didn't know what sound job I actually did. That was an easy fix though- a quick email CC'ing everyone Contract Services, the production company and the payroll company sorted that out. Lesson learned- check that whoever files any start paperwork logs your job classification accurately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 MK: " Most of my work has been independent productions that haven't used a payroll company " which technically means you have not been employed... remember CS is dealing with employment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Maybe according to Contract Services they don't see it as proved employment, but 12 hours + on set sure feels like I'm being employed by someone to me... and the IRS certainly doesn't take the same view come tax season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 MK: " sure feels like I'm being employed by someone to me... and the IRS certainly doesn't take the same view come tax season. " if you are playing IC, then you are employed by yourself...and taxed by the IRS accordingly. You weren't employed by the production, and provided wages and benefits. CS is about employment in the business, not contracting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So just because the production is independent means the production company can't put you on their payroll? Strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " because the production is independent means the production company can't put you on their payroll? " that is an incorrect cause and effect. actually, most of the time we really belong on a payroll, as has been discussed here before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 And herein is the problem. The job we do utilizes the same skill set whether you fill out a w9 and file a 1099 at tax time as an independent contractor, or wether you go through payroll with a w4 and file a W2. A day mixing as an independent is a day's work just as a day mixing on a payroll is. The same issues will need to be solved and similar equipment is used. It really shouldn't matter how the payroll is structured as the experience is the same and all days should count, but I do understand that CS has a burden of proof obligation and the way work is documented in the indie world does leave too many doors open for abuse. Not only that though, some of the commercials that I have worked on hire through their own payroll that is not one of the recognized entertainment payroll companies. Yes, I still fill out a w4 and all the other documents. I am on file as an employee and not an independent contractor, but I still have issues getting Contract Services to accept those days as well as they don't have the same way of documenting the work done. As I said in an earlier post it really is just a case of submitting everything, some days will count, some won't and eventually that magic number of 100 days will be reached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " because the production is independent means the production company can't put you on their payroll? " that is an incorrect cause and effect. That's what I thought, but your post above (#9) made it sound like it wasn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 MK: " It really shouldn't matter how the payroll is structured as the experience is the same and all days should count, " and that is your way of seeing it, but not theirs, and it is their pond you want to swim in... remember that CS deals with all the labor contract employees for their clients' movies; for example they have absolutely nothing to do with equipment rentals, or with non-union contract employment or contractors. Call sheets are frequently used to verify the employment on less descriptive payroll stubs. C: " the production company can't put you on their payroll? " actually (USA), they mostly should put "us" on a payroll, and most legitimate ones actually insist on it... this has been thoroughly discussed before, and the only change is that payrolling is becoming more common as the tax, legal, and labor folks are getting more sticky about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Interesting. Over here it's almost exactly the opposite. Production companies want to put you on their payroll, but sound mixers tend to refuse. Most of us prefer to be self-employed, but we charge about 30% extra compared to the employees. Anyway, I digress... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " Production companies want to put you on their payroll, but sound mixers tend to refuse. " as I said, same here, but outside union projects, many sound mixers resist... gets me thinking: where's Borg357 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " Production companies want to put you on their payroll, but sound mixers tend to refuse. " as I said, same here, but outside union projects, many sound mixers resist... gets me thinking: where's Borg357 ? Well, our union system is a bit different. Borg357 has changed his name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " Borg357 has changed his name " the IRS found him anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 C: " Borg357 has changed his name " the IRS found him anyway... Resistance is futile... When it comes to the IRS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I imagine CS feels that legitimate jobs, where filmmaking or technical skills can be properly learned and honed, will be a payroll situation. They don't believe a bunch of kids running around with a 5D and calling themselves directors or grips or electricians or sound mixers is legitimate. The idea of the industry experience roster, which CS controls, is to provide a list of skilled technicians to employers, not a list of people who have managed to get themselves on set, and who are not being trained properly. Whether that's an accurate assessment of their views or the skills of potential employees is another story. There are tons of shorts being put together by skilled crew, which are a great place to learn. But there are tons of "jobs" where nobody knows what the hell is going on. Thankfully, due to enforcement of labor laws, many "legitimate" jobs are now being paid via payroll. That ought to help the new generation coming up. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmfsnd Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 So what I'm hearing is that the CSA will pretty much only go off of payroll company information, regardless of letters or secondary proof from production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Matt: " So what I'm hearing is that ... " ...it depends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Senator's advice, is once again, accurate but entirely unhelpful and not worth stating. Good advice would be to take what you have, including check stubs, call sheets, letters and whatever else might prove your employment, and bring it to Contract Services for their review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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