Time code on set prodedures

[Stephen]

Can anyone recommend a book or article to help explain best or standard procedures on how to connect and maintain time code sync between camera and audio recorder?  Most of what I've read concerns frame rates, free run vs rec- run, etc.  Beyond specs, I'm looking to find out info such as;  is it best to have a time code cable between generator (in my case the SD 664) and camera connected at all times if possible (such as cameras on sticks for a sit down interview)  If frame rates and TC are synced, why is a timecode slate used?  How would a Lockit box help?  As I said, searching the web has not given me the hands on type of info I'm looking for. Generally I would work on a 1 or 2 camera shoot.  Thanks in advance. 

[studiomprd]

Stephen: " searching the web has not given me the hands on type of info I'm looking for... is it best to have. "

That is difficult to say, but perhaps try searching this site, via Google, as there are lots of discussions covering this information...

there are numerous ways to deal with what you are interested in, and a lot of "it depends" involved, and, so sorry, but it isn't necessarily easy.

[John Blankenship]

Also, you need to learn the differences between 1) time code, 2) frame rate, and 3) timebase.  Too many people assume they're all the same thing -- they're not.

 

But, I echo what Mike said, there have been numerous discussions in this forum about different ways to approach time code sync with cameras.  On Google search, type jwsoundgroup followed by search terms likely to help you find pertinent threads.  How successful you are depends in a large amount on how effective you can be with your search terms.  "One and done" seldom reveals all the information you might be looking for.  The more diligent you are, the more rewarded you'll be.

[Constantin]

You can probably learn everything you need to know about timecode on these pages (remember for your search that it's often abbreviated to TC), but a book is what the OP was asking for. I have seen and read a few books which talk about timecode, but they usually focus on definition, types and differences. There is rarely any practical advice.

Senator, you might know a book or two?

[John Blankenship]

Whereas time code itself hasn't changed, the application of time code has evolved enough over recent years (and with a constant stream of new cameras), that any books I'm aware of aren't as up-to-date as the information you'll find here. 

 

He also said, "book, or article..." and many of the more detailed posts here, especially taken as a whole, pretty much constitute "articles."

 

NOTE:  Just be careful, because there is a great deal of misinformation about time code, even in these pages.  It is often in the form of assumptions by newer users, but even some of the more experienced sound mixers have misunderstandings about some aspects of time code.  Don't take any time code information as gospel unless it is fully corroborated by other experienced pros.

[Stephen]

Thanks to all so far.  Good advice on searching through google versus using the forums search engine. And the advice to use "TC"  as well as "timecode"!  Yes, it is practical advice I'm in need of. As Constantin says, most of the info is about the inner workings of TC.  I am beginning to get a better handle on the "how it's done" from some searches.  I'm getting little pieces of info by the questions and responses, and then able to start piecing together the bigger picture. Still looking for that "magic book".

[OmahaAudio]

...as there are lots of discussions covering this information...

There may have been many discussions that covered this information but not, I believe, a simple cogent "statement" of what-to-do as this person asks for.

So why do you not provide the information instead of lambasting yet another person with your continual BS?

[Chris Woodcock]

Stephen I can give you a good resource for time code if you send me a message

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[studiomprd]

Omaha: " but not, I believe, a simple cogent "statement" of what-to-do as this person asks for. "

pretty much correct...

" So why do you not provide the information "

naw.... you go ahead, please.

[Joshua Anderson]

Wasn't there a book titled "Time Code Primer"?

[studiomprd]

there were several books (guess they still are!), but they have not been updated in years...

 

one thing I say confidently: workflow test!

[Joshua Anderson]

http://spars.com/products/time-code-primer/

[Stephen]

When it comes to best practices in production you should stop by your favorite production sound store and talk to any of the technicians about the parameters of your upcoming project. Gear/Budget wise & in terms of what post is requesting. They'll help you figure out the most effective way to sync and probably give you a deal, so you can collect regular rental prices from production.

 

Also check out Sound Man by Richard Patton. He has a chapter on production TC.

 

Thanks Eva

I only wish!

Unfortunately, being in Portland Oregon, visiting a production sound store is not an easy proposition...sigh.  But I'll take your advice on the book and maybe make a phone call to Trew.

[Stephen]

http://spars.com/products/time-code-primer/

 Thanks for the link!

[Wandering Ear]

There may have been many discussions that covered this information but not, I believe, a simple cogent "statement" of what-to-do as this person asks for.

So why do you not provide the information instead of lambasting yet another person with your continual BS?

The reality is, there is no one procedure for tc on set. Many factors influence the tc workflow including things like free run / rec run, frame rates, jam sync vs ext feed, etc.. Therefore the op would benefit more by reading through different tc related topics and learning the different workflows that work in different situations, rather than looking for a one answer fits all.

[Marc Wielage]

Many good answers above.

 

My feeling is that timecode is kind of the domain and the concern of the post-production staff, so you should consult with them as to what they want to do. If you're doing a multiple camera project, I think generally the best way to go is get a timecode jam box like a Denecke SB-T or an Ambient Lockit box, jam it to the sound recorder, then physically tie it onto each camera and have the camera slave to the box all day long. If it's multiple cameras, ideally you should lock both timecode and reference sync (genlock), which should theoretically make the timecode phase accurate in time with picture.

 

The timecode slate is used for a variety of reasons:

 

1) there's almost a 90-year tradition of clapping the sticks at the head of every scene to verify sound sync

 

2) the slate visibly shows the name of the scene, the take number, and the date, which is all pertinent information needed by the post crew. Without that, all they have are hundreds of takes with just timecode, all unidentified in terms of how the pieces fit into the jigsaw puzzle that forms the scene.

 

3) the rhythm of rolling sound and picture and calling for a marker reminds the crew to be quiet, warns the actors to get ready, and otherwise gets everybody else prepared to shoot the scene.

 

4) you didn't ask, but when possible, I tell clients to get a wireless audio feed on every camera just as a backup to help in syncing. That way they have three different ways to go in post: the camera timecode (which should match the sound timecode), the clap, and the reference audio track on the camera. Chances are, one of those will be right, maybe all three if you're lucky.

 

I recognize that many camera crews are annoyed by even the little timecode box, so it's possible the wireless audio receiver is an imposition. It's nice to have, but not mandatory. Still, I've been part of many projects where the timecode completely went to hell on one or multiple cameras, so every little bit you can help the post crew is eventually appreciated. My joke is, "if you take that extra :10 seconds to slate on set, you might save five minutes in post." Five minutes may not sound like much, but it could be over a hundred bucks in many, many facilities. Multiply that times 200 takes a day, it adds up. 

 

This becomes even more important when massive numbers of cameras are used -- I've mentioned before here that we had to sync up 22 cameras on the Rolling Stones' Shine a Light project, and I'm guessing we spent weeks on sync because we often had no slates and no timecode. A project with this kind of budget and schedule could handle this, but something like a TV show with a fast turnaround could not. People want to see dailies at 9AM, not 3PM that afternoon. That extra four or five hours spent syncing every day gets very tiresome, especially when it could be completely eliminated with a decent timecode slate and valid timecode. 

[dominiquegreffard]

Many good points by Marc here. I would add to that to double check that the recorder, tc boxes, slates and cameras are all set to the same framerate. Also check for yourself on the camera what famerate the camera is set (including DF or ND) because many people will call 23.976 for 24 and vice versa. Reading the timecode section of the camera that you will work with will save you a lot of stress on set and help you avoid mistakes.

[OmahaAudio]

Omaha: " but not, I believe, a simple cogent "statement" of what-to-do as this person asks for. "

pretty much correct...

" So why do you not provide the information "

naw.... you go ahead, please.

I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge and experience (no joke) so how about putting something together?

 

Could we get a JW "wiki" that would put some basic info together for newbies (and oldies) in "blocks" like "standard procedures on how to connect and maintain time code sync between camera and audio recorder"?

 

That way, Mike could just link to something specific instead of just saying "search". Maybe even put it in a "here are the basics" section. The positive kharma would be enormous.

[Jeff Wexler]

 

Could we get a JW "wiki" that would put some basic info together for newbies (and oldies) in "blocks" like "standard procedures on how to connect and maintain time code sync between camera and audio recorder"?

 

That way, Mike could just link to something specific instead of just saying "search". Maybe even put it in a "here are the basics" section. The positive kharma would be enormous.

I have been trying to put something together, just as you describe, but there is no automated way to do this --- I have put up a wiki-style site just to evaluate what might be possible. Feel free to take a look: http://jwsoundgroup.wikispaces.com

 

Also, I am going to make active a Google Search which will be the default search when using the Search function on the site (so no need to do a jwsoundgroup:subject Google search off the site). We'll see if Google searches right from the site provide better results.

[John Blankenship]

I think you're onto something here, Jeff. 

 

A separate Wiki site would allow members to build a nice repository of articles and answers to commonly-asked questions that grows with member participation, while leaving the main site as it is, in observation of the ol', "if it ain't broke..." maxim.

 

We'd still continue as usual here, but when something shows up that is actually helpful, it can be added to the Wiki.  A Wiki link on the JWS main page would take users to the growing store of information on many of the most commonly discussed items.  Newcomers could find answers more easily without encountering as much crustiness from those of us tired of answering endless neophyte questions in a professional forum.  Likewise, a statement of the forum purposes might help those newcomers understand why we're here and what they're in for.  I realize you like to keep things casual and unregimented, but a generic statement might lead to less misunderstanding.

 

Also, the search idea sounds good, too.  Hopefully, it can bypass the current re-directs that often butt in when one clicks on a found JWS search link in Google.

 

Apparently, the Hawaiian air was beneficial. 

 

[Ze Frias]

I think you're onto something here, Jeff. 

 

A separate Wiki site would allow members to build a nice repository of articles and answers to commonly-asked questions that grows with member participation, while leaving the main site as it is, in observation of the ol', "if it ain't broke..." maxim.

 

We'd still continue as usual here, but when something shows up that is actually helpful, it can be added to the Wiki.  A Wiki link on the JWS main page would take users to the growing store of information on many of the most commonly discussed items.  Newcomers could find answers more easily without encountering as much crustiness from those of us tired of answering endless neophyte questions in a professional forum.  Likewise, a statement of the forum purposes might help those newcomers understand why we're here and what they're in for.  I realize you like to keep things casual and unregimented, but a generic statement might lead to less misunderstanding.

 

Also, the search idea sounds good, too.  Hopefully, it can bypass the current re-directs that often butt in when one clicks on a found JWS search link in Google.

 

Apparently, the Hawaiian air was beneficial. 

 

+1 to everything said here.

[Miles Anderson]

+1 to all, as well.

 

another thing: have a look at the sound devices manual. most of what you are asking about is explained fairly well in there. 

 

if the 664 manual doesn't do it for you, have a look at the 788 manual. it's well written and digestible.

[ccsnd]

Here's a quick answer as to why do both (sticks and timecode)

 

timecode is technology, and technology can, and often does fail.

 

physical sticks clapping together is physics, and physics do not fail.

[syncsound]

Here's a quick answer as to why do both (sticks and timecode)

 

timecode is technology, and technology can, and often does fail.

 

physical sticks clapping together is physics, and physics do not fail.

+1. 

 

Additionally, your tracks may end up in the hands of inexperienced post mixers who do not know how to handle time code, so a "belts and braces" approach is always wise.

[Mark Orusa]

I just put up a bunch of timecode documents in my Google Drive account. I've collected these over time and found them to be very helpful in understanding timecode. I make no claim of ownership, nor of accuracy. These are freely available on the internet.

 

Timecode documents here

 

Mark O.