Prahlad Strickland Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Too late but i'm editing this because only my last 5 words were posted here... Couple of weeks ago I was working on a blue screen set. The room is cement walls and floors. Fortunately the roof was sprayed with paper acousic spray, but I would none the less it was basically an echo chamber. I'm using a Zaxcom maxx, I have some DPA4063 and Cos11 mics, My shotguns are Sennheiser 416, Neumann KMR81i. I have a wide range of studio mics including a U47 and original M49, Flea M49, Neumann U87 and the usual dynmaic suspects. The 416 had really bad reverberation pickup in my oppinion, the KMR81i was better but still no cigar for me. I ended up mounting my U87 mic to the end of my boom pole, which is not something I want to do again... I guess the polar pattern of this mic was perfect as It really avoided at least 50% of the reverb of that room (compared to the sennheiser 416. I don't want to lug the U87 to anymore film sets as it's just not designed for the rugged film world. Would really like some Mic models thrown at me to try in these kinds of echoey situations Can I get some thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 laddie: " Can I get some thoughts " echo, a form of reverberation,is not caused by microphones, it is the acoustics of the space that is involved... " Best... " that is always difficult to say; it is also rather subjective. options have been discussed around here frequently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I find the double posting ironically appropriate somehow... somehow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Is anybody in here? ...in here? There have been many past discussions on how to deal with a reverberant room. 1) embrace the reverberation and consider it part of the scene. 2) mic the actors up close to eliminate the room sound as much as possible 3) add acoustic materials to the room (scrims, sound blankets, carpets, balloons, etc.) to reduce or eliminate the slap echo 4) record wild tracks with the actors surrounded by blankets to give the sound editor some alternates 5) replace it all with ADR in post. There is also a 6th option available nowadays: use digital processing (like the reverb-reduction mode of iZotope RX3 Advanced) to suppress some of the reverberation. It's not 100% effective, but I've had cases recently where I could knock about 1/3 of the worst effects out to make the dialogue more intelligible. In many cases, all of these ideas can be used depending on the circumstances of the shoot. But there is no such thing as a magic microphone that makes reverb (or bad location problems) go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 7. Use a SuperCMIT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 7. Use a SuperCMIT... Yep, can be so effective one can end up wanting to put some back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 TV: " ironically appropriate somehow. " TV: " ironically appropriate somehow. " TV: " ironically appropriate somehow. " Marc: " There have been many past discussions on how to deal with a reverberant room. " amen " mic the actors up close to eliminate the room sound as much as possible " we call this signal to noise ratio " there is no such thing as a magic microphone that makes reverb (or bad location problems) go away. " AMEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 ... " there is no such thing as a magic microphone that makes reverb (or bad location problems) go away. " AMEN There must be. "Sound Mixers" with three whole weeks experience ask for them on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 First of all. Thanks heaps for the responses. I really appreciate this site and all it's users Best site ever. "" there is no such thing as a magic microphone that makes reverb (or bad location problems) go away. " AMEN True but reverb can be substantially reduced with mic choice. As I said. A u87 above a talent vs a 416 The u87 had substantially less echo. I was just curious which of the smaller shotguns perform better under echoey rooms. These shots I'm able to boom within 8 inches above the talents head. The u87 was at least 40 or 50 percent better. Sounds like you all disagree? Or haven't compared in this regard ? I don't know and it was only my experiment with the u87 that sparked my interest in the topic. Again... This is purely a mic choice for me. Close miced or not Thanks for the advice on a super cmit will give it a try. I understand the process of acoustic treatment being in the post production side of things for 12 years Ina beautifully treated room. In the last couple years I've been doing a lot of location sound for interviews for documentarys. This would be in situations where I don't have the luxury of installing treatment. And thanks studiomprd for keeping me laughing your posts always bring me a good laugh glad to be at the receiving end after joining your forum after reading for a few years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 JB: " There must be.... " one of my dept. chairs insists that I teach the students our secrets, and he'll order the magic mic's, so student movie sound won't suck so much... laddie: " Sounds like you all disagree? " not necessarily... but interference tube mic's... I've already said that, even though you didn't read it! that is why so much existing discussion of hypercardioid and cardioid mic's, without interference tube acoustical construction, are often preferred. " acoustic treatment being in the post production side " wrong: acoustic treatment is done to the capturing location... and, BTW, I have done interviews using LD mic's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 heck.... I just looked at my #1 post... I didn't write that, that was the last 5 words of the post. crap, no wonder I was spank'd, I appologise, this would have made no sense. anyways, for the record I explained the set, the blue screen, no option to treat the room, what mic's I was using and own and what methods i'd used to try and minimize the room ambience. Anyways, I still don't know what happened to my post #1, I could'nt understand why a few people repeated "can I get some thought?" I was like, is that all they are reading from my post? hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 There must be. "Sound Mixers" with three whole weeks experience ask for them on a regular basis. fortunately i've been in and out of location sound for 10 years, although still very inexperienced, i've travelled to NZ, Australia, Arizona, Hawaii on documentary work, and even used to use and still own a Nagra IV-s which I still use in the studio becuase I love the sound. I have a full telex / RTS comms setup with 12 wireless and 10 wired, I run remote viewing for out of state directors both in hawaii and arizona. I enjoy location sound work and especially the one man gig travelling with a production team. I'm a complete lamen when I comes to general mic patterns etc.. that's why i'm asking for ya'll help When I worked on this set with a blue screen room, I couldn't believe it was untreated and bare cement and used a lot for ads and some movie work. But I guess I just expected a few mic models as suggestions, instead I feel I was kind of mocked, (a few of you gave specific suggestions) but maybe that's because my post #1 mysteriously was not a post by the last 5 words of my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 For the Record I re posted #1, it's embarrasing to think alls my original post said was "can I get some thoughts" for the record i'm not that much of a d*&*, i would never post a one liner, hahahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I find the double posting ironically appropriate somehow... somehow... I edited post #1 for the record, sorry I missed it until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 laddie: " for the record I explained " OK, doesn't really change my replies... sorry you had that problem.... both times... did I mention books by Jay Rose www.dplay.com and Rick Viers www.mwp.com..? and there are the books by Hawai'i's own John Fielden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Without seeing it (which could change things), my basic approach with a room like you now mention is... 1) Use furnie pads as much as possible along bth sides and the back of the room, hung well away from the walls -- with more furnies on the floor. 2) Then I'd position a Schoeps as near as possible above the top of the talent's head, leaving just enough room for a garbage matte. 3) ...Roll sound and submit the invoice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 No offense if you have been doing location sound for 10 years then you should really know microphone polarity patterns, that's like basic level knowledge :-/ Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 u87 is best mic from what I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 as JB: " Then I'd position a Schoeps as near as possible above the top of the talent's head, " I did mention s/n ... you seem to have a lot of toys, but you need a box of clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Here's the poop. Any shotgun mic is going to sound harsher in reverberation. My guess is because it picks up the slap on the floor and is generally tuned to be more sensitive to the higher end freqs. You would think that a shotgun mic would reject most of the echo around the room and thus sound better in that environment. However a "fuller" mic tends to sound more natural in echo-y places when micing up close. Something like a schoeps 41 or senn. 50. I know this is the case but occasionally I question the logic of it. One occasion happened a few days ago. I first tried the CMIT - didn't like it on the guys voice in the echo-y room. Switched to the 50 and his voice sounded normal. You could tell he was in an echo-y room but the CMIT accentuated the high ends in the reverberation thus making his voice sound unnatural. I say unnatural because I've been recording his voice for 6 months and I know what it's suppose to sound like in a normal situation. That's my 2 cents. You're going to get a lot of 2 cents in this forum but eventually you have to settle on your own 2 cents. Just try different stuff and see what you like. Mirror Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 No offense if you have been doing location sound for 10 years then you should really know microphone polarity patterns, that's like basic level knowledge :-/ Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk never been a problem before... never been in a room that was that bad. I understand polarity patterns... this thread was a question, a suggestion to which mic's have a pattern that would perform well in a reverby environment... What are your suggestions?, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Here's the poop. Any shotgun mic is going to sound harsher in reverberation. My guess is because it picks up the slap on the floor and is generally tuned to be more sensitive to the higher end freqs. You would think that a shotgun mic would reject most of the echo around the room and thus sound better in that environment. However a "fuller" mic tends to sound more natural in echo-y places when micing up close. Something like a schoeps 41 or senn. 50. I know this is the case but occasionally I question the logic of it. One occasion happened a few days ago. I first tried the CMIT - didn't like it on the guys voice in the echo-y room. Switched to the 50 and his voice sounded normal. You could tell he was in an echo-y room but the CMIT accentuated the high ends in the reverberation thus making his voice sound unnatural. I say unnatural because I've been recording his voice for 6 months and I know what it's suppose to sound like in a normal situation. That's my 2 cents. You're going to get a lot of 2 cents in this forum but eventually you have to settle on your own 2 cents. Just try different stuff and see what you like. Mirror Thanks man, I appreciate your suggestions. The 50 was actually suggested to me over on gearslutz, sounds like I should give that puppy a try. laddie: " for the record I explained " OK, doesn't really change my replies... sorry you had that problem.... both times... did I mention books by Jay Rose www.dplay.com and Rick Viers www.mwp.com..? and there are the books by Hawai'i's own John Fielden... Yes!, great books, had the honor to meet Mr Fielden many years ago, great guy, and great engineer. More interested in more toys right now, ones with less echo, oh wait... sorry echo and reverb are totally different things ;-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 A u87 above a talent vs a 416 The u87 had substantially less echo. I was just curious which of the smaller shotguns perform better under echoey rooms. These shots I'm able to boom within 8 inches above the talents head. The u87 was at least 40 or 50 percent better. I've used a U87 a thousand times in the studio for narration, VO, and vocals, but it's the last microphone I would ever take on location because of its susceptibility to moisture, vibration, and inherent fragility. I can drop a Schoeps CMC641 on the floor and know it'll probably be OK -- not so with a (much heavier) U87. I think any really good supercardioid like a 641 or a Sennheiser MKH50 would do a better job under those circumstances, but neither of those will make hard reflections magically go away. Again, in tough situations with green screen -- which Mr. Deichen and I had to do a few weeks ago -- I found the lav worked best about 80% of the time. The pattern is not as important as the proximity, but there are a lot of "it depends" answers. It's frustrating, the number of terrible green screen studios in LA, particularly those with little or no ceiling insulation. They're great for picture, awful for avoiding overhead jets, neighborhood sirens, and truck drive-bys. It's very telling that in movies like Avatar and the recent Hobbit blockbusters, a lot of the green screen sequences wound up completely ADR'd for the final film. If they can't solve green screen sound problems with $200M budgets, you figure it's going to be almost impossible to do so with run-of-the-mill commercials, shorts, TV shows, and smaller features. Having said that: the massive 150' square green screen stage they had at Kerner Optical in San Rafael (formerly Industrial Light & Magic) was bone-quiet and perfectly capable of providing decent dialogue sound. So it all depends on the intentions and mindset of the people who built the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Senator, btw, you have had me in fits of laughter for a couple years now, I really do appreciate your candid responses and help. I'm not a great communicator on paper :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prahlad Strickland Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I've used a U87 a thousand times in the studio for narration, VO, and vocals, but it's the last microphone I would ever take on location because of its susceptibility to moisture, vibration, and inherent fragility. I can drop a Schoeps CMC641 on the floor and know it'll probably be OK -- not so with a (much heavier) U87. I think any really good supercardioid like a 641 or a Sennheiser MKH50 would do a better job under those circumstances, but neither of those will make hard reflections magically go away. Again, in tough situations with green screen -- which Mr. Deichen and I had to do a few weeks ago -- I found the lav worked best about 80% of the time. The pattern is not as important as the proximity, but there are a lot of "it depends" answers. It's frustrating, the number of terrible green screen studios in LA, particularly those with little or no ceiling insulation. They're great for picture, awful for avoiding overhead jets, neighborhood sirens, and truck drive-bys. Amen to your post, I was very frustrated since the blue screened counterpart was outside... it made no sense to have any reflection. I warned them about the location but they said it looks great, what's the problem?, I was able to get some really nice wild tracks with a booth box I rigged up myself, so long as their editor has some chops in protools it shouldn't be a problem. And yes, bringing a U87 to set will never happen again, it's a vintage original, and i've already had moisture problems with it in the past here in hawaii. I've had the 50 and 641 suggested to me a couple times now. Seems like the schoeps system is a great investment with it's interchangeable capsulses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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