judykarp Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 It's a long and complicated story (not really a sad one), but I am now the owner of both a 633 and a MAXX. I do mostly documentary work and am trying to decide which is my main recorder and which is my backup. I am a long time Sound Devices user so there is/was a much steeper learning curve for the MAXX but there are many things that I like about it (size, weight, design, to name a few). My main problem with the MAXX is that I am uncomfortable recording to only a CF card. For years, I used my 744T, I left the CF card with production if I had to, and went home and downloaded from the hard drive so that I had my own record of the day's sound. I'd like to hear if this is an issue for other MAXX users, and if so, what you are doing to deal with it. Thanks, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I am not a Maxx owner, but I agree it's troublesome to have only a single media to record to. That is one of two main reasons I'm staying away for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Amazing, I spent my entire career recording to only 1 medium/media on either 1/4", DAT or single CF card and there was never an issue. What has changed to cause the rampant insecurity? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I agree with this statement. I am a 788T user, and enjoy the fact that I have a large hard drive to record to, and a CF card to pass off at the end of the night. I can't tell you how many times Im on a job and it had not occurred to anyone that they would need to get footage from me at the end of the day. So they either take my CF card with them and mail it back to me, or I have to follow them to their house or office to transfer my files. Then down the road, I get calls from people who have either lost my files, or didn't read the sound report and thought they lost them, and I had my backup to verify the issue or get them the files again. The reason why this is an issue Eric is because of the race to the bottom, and the incompetent people that are in charge of the files. I got a call the other day from an editor who was cutting a film I shot in January. He was concerned that I had hit stop half way through one take, and record half way through another. If he had looked at the scripty report, or my sound report, or compared how many sound takes there were for that scene with how many picture takes there were, he could have found that my file was split into two files because there were a lot of tracks and it was a long take. I had to open my files and read my sound report to tell him that he was not missing footage, he just wasn't reading the sound report. This scene was near the end of the film, so it is my guess that this editor had nearly cut an entire feature without using Time Code, or reading the sound and scripty reports. But having my backup made me look good in front of the director (who was also on the phone with us) and made this editor look like a fool, as well as provided the director with a lot of relief, that he wasn't missing any footage. Unfortunately, I don't think this director is smart enough to realize that this editor is probably not a good guy to go with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judykarp Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Eric, that is an interesting question. Just sold my Nagra 4.2. With 1/4" and DAT, I never had any problem turning the only copy over to production and they never seemed to have a problem Fedex-ing the only copy of sound (and film) home from Brazil or wherever without backing up on two hard drives (which of course didn't exist) . I never kept my own back-ups and no one ever called me six months later to ask about a sound take on a production I can barely remember working on. For me, tape was so physical. I knew immediately when the DAT jammed or when the 1/4" tape was about to roll out. With cards, who knows. I don't imagine I am alone in my paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judykarp Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 And Jon, the six month later call I had in mind was an acupuncture session where I wasn't allowed in the room and couldn't wire either the acupuncturist or the patient. The editor wanted to know why the sound level was so low when it had been fine for the rest of the day. I found the file on my back-up hard drive and then the director remembered what the situation had been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kittappa Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Oh how I miss the days when I could just turn in a DAT tape, a paper report and just go home. Now at wrap its now a case of generating a sound report onto a flash drive, making a run to the DIT to make sure he starts on my audio card before he begins transferring the camera card. If I don't make it in time then it's a half hour wait until he's finished the video card before he can spend two minutes on the audio card. Even when I get home I now feel obligated to back up the days work on my home G-raid before I can crack open that end of day cold beer. Those were the days! Seriously I'm in the SD world- I've had a CF card go bad on one occasion and I'm glad that I had the hard drive too, so yes the idea that the maxx only has one card is certainly a small concern- can't have too much redundancy in a system, but would that put me off using the Maxx- probably not. I more likely to choose a recorder based on functionality and workflow than wether it has more than one recording medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Sounds as if you are keeping both recorders and choosing a primary as compared to a back up recorder. Nice problem to have. If I only owned a Maxx, I'd have multiple CF Cards and change them every gig. The used ones I'd back up on a home drive when I needed to and then put it/them back in rotation. I don't really see it as a limitation of much concern for most jobs. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Ive been recording to Maxx with one CF card for several months now and I haven't had any issues. There have been a handful of reports for some users where the BWF has gotten corrupted either through a card issue of when transferring files to a computer due to an issue with the computer. But as far as I know of every single case the MARF file on the card was untouched and all the files were completely recoverable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I used an SD 702T (CF only) for years and years as a daily driver, virtually no issues at all w/ CFs of many types recommended and non--, and FAR fewer problems than I had with DATs, as well as with 1/4" Nagra tapes with CTTC (the timecode playback in post being the ongoing issue). I like multiple media too, but more for client delivery, backup etc reasons (as with the 744 and 3 media etc) than worries about media failure. When I was rolling the 702T all the time I did as Crew mentioned and swapped out newly formatted CFs for every day of every job (easy, since with only 2 tr the cards could be small cap and thus way cheap). philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi Judy, Like Jack said to my knowledge no audio has ever been lost due to a MAXX recording problem. The dual recording that MAXX makes on its single media is a much safer way to do it than other solutions. Even if the directory is erased the audio is easily recovered due to MARFs ability to play the audio with no directory present on the card. MAXX uses very common low cost cards and along with the track record of Nomad has proven to be the best fail safe system. Due to the MARF system a power loss or system lock up is a non event on MAXX (Not that either is common). All audio would be recoverable until the time of the event. Because MAXX does not have to constantly update directories as all other recorders do and does not to rely on multiple batteries there is much less to go wrong. Go ahead and do a test. Without an internal battery in MAXX pull the power while in record. That should tell you all you need to know about the recording system. Now Lets talk about audio quality and NeverClip ;-) Best Wishes Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The failure rate of recommended flash media from reputable manufacturers due to age or component failure (hell even factoring in wear and tear and user abuse) is pretty damn low. It's if you are really so paranoid, you could use one of Maxx's outputs to record a stereo mix to either a Zoom or competing product, but that is frankly unecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I would have thought that one of the main problems with the 633 is whether to hand in the CF or the SD card each night. Any users out there got any experience of what post prefer? Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. CAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Amazing, I spent my entire career recording to only 1 medium/media on either 1/4", DAT or single CF card and there was never an issue. What has changed to cause the rampant insecurity? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Unfortunately this insecurity is driven (in part) by post's assumption that (now its all digital) you always have a back up. If a had a Maxx I would always make a copy of the days card before handing it off; thinking the line through I would hand off the copy and retain the original (to back up to on my home server). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro nakamura Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I just kind of sold my Maxx, pending sale. But no problem with the CF cards or data transfer. I have a laptop in my run bag all the time, I normally keep a copy before I hand over my CF card to DIT or the person download the files overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 AFAIK Alexa's, Red's and other cameras don't record to two media simultaneously so why the need for audio to do it? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I've noticed that a LOT of the 664 owners I work along side only use a CF card. I personally would use both, but most of them don't seem to bother. They view it as "pick whichever slot you want", not redundancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judykarp Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi Judy, Like Jack said to my knowledge no audio has ever been lost due to a MAXX recording problem. The dual recording that MAXX makes on its single media is a much safer way to do it than other solutions. Even if the directory is erased the audio is easily recovered due to MARFs ability to play the audio with no directory present on the card. MAXX uses very common low cost cards and along with the track record of Nomad has proven to be the best fail safe system. Due to the MARF system a power loss or system lock up is a non event on MAXX (Not that either is common). All audio would be recoverable until the time of the event. Because MAXX does not have to constantly update directories as all other recorders do and does not to rely on multiple batteries there is much less to go wrong. Go ahead and do a test. Without an internal battery in MAXX pull the power while in record. That should tell you all you need to know about the recording system. Now Lets talk about audio quality and NeverClip ;-) Best Wishes Glenn Glenn, Not sure how to use this site yet so I'll see if this works. Don't get me wrong, although it was not love at first sight, and the learning curve was quite steep, I have learned to love my MAXX for all the obvious reasons which I won't elaborate here. I think I need to separate out two issues regarding the lack of a backup. The first is reliability and the second is convenience and the reality of the new expectations of sound mixers (i.e. that we will back up files and keep them forever-or at least until the show we worked on is aired which could be years from now.) . From the responses here, people seem convinced of the reliability of the MAXX. The convenience factor is the second part of my question. It's so easy to pass on a card to production, not wait if camera gets there first, or, as happens on many documentaries I work on, the laptop is not even on the "set," and then go home, knowing that you can backup the files of the day with your second card (or hard drive in the case of my 744.) I have "lost" many cards to production, have sometimes billed for them, but many times (with 4 or 8G cards, I have just considered it the cost of doing business.) I have been recording sound for too many years and never once got a call that a 1/4" tape or a DAT tape was lost but several times in the bast few years I have gotten calls from productions that can't find my sound. I think this is especially true in docs, where all editing is done with the sound that goes into the camera- and it's only in the final sound edit, that it occurs to anyone to check "originals." Again, I just want to explain my needs and the reality of my working environment. If I were still working on features or more formal sets, this might not be a problem. My own laptop on the set may be a solution. Thanks for your response, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I certainly understand your concerns regarding a single media. I agree you have 2 separate issues. Reliability with MARF is not an issue as it is the better choice over any number of separate medias recorded by the same recorder at the same time. You are correct that a laptop will quickly archive the recorded audio for the day and is an inexpensive solution. The important thing is that the audio quality of MAXXs 136 dB input dynamic range and limiter distortion free tracks with floating point DSP can not be replicated in other recorders. The tracks you record are a reflection of your craft and your talent. They should not be anything less than they could be under any circumstances. I think it is worth the minute it might take to copy files in order to capture the best quality record audio possible. After the fact it will be the tracks that document your work not that you took an extra step to archive. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I will take the reliability of Marf on one card over everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I agree with this statement. I am a 788T user, and enjoy the fact that I have a large hard drive to record to, and a CF card to pass off at the end of the night. I can't tell you how many times Im on a job and it had not occurred to anyone that they would need to get footage from me at the end of the day. So they either take my CF card with them and mail it back to me, or I have to follow them to their house or office to transfer my files. Then down the road, I get calls from people who have either lost my files, or didn't read the sound report and thought they lost them, and I had my backup to verify the issue or get them the files again. The reason why this is an issue Eric is because of the race to the bottom, and the incompetent people that are in charge of the files. +1 If you like Maxx and need 2 cards...just buy a Nomad ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I agree that in digital world clients DO assume you have a backup, somehow. Yes, they did not assume that in the 1/4" days, but they actually grew to expect it during the DAT era, after so many problems started to crop up (on big cart jobs rolling a 2nd DAT, even w/o TC, became SOP in my area). It's way easier to have the backup that clients expect automatically, via a 2nd card or onboard HD, but copying the single card to a portable computer is a good backup too, just clumsier. I also run into situations where I need two cards immediately after jobs wrap (if not after every interview etc) so having the material in 2 places is very convenient. On many 2-card machines you can also roll just a 2 mix on one card and the whole platter on the other, sometimes as requested by post. Sooner or later you will have a card issue, possibly self-inflicted like most digital media problems, but being careful seems to keep that gremlin at bay mostly. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Also I always have backup on the transmitters.... nothing is ever lost... never worry about anything. If a card is formatted it can be recovered almost 99% of the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 +1 If you like Maxx and need 2 cards...just buy a Nomad ! How about a Maxx reboot v.2 with two card slots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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