cjreig Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hello everyone, First post here, but have lurked for quite some time. My name is Christopher Reig. I am an on-set post guy who does dailies (short and sweet). I have recently come across an interesting challenge for a workflow, and have found myself hitting a brick wall in my research, so on advice of a sound recordist colleague, am asking here. On most shows I work on, we usually use a mix track in a poly BWF for our dailies deliverables. However for this show, the sound recordist is unable to a mix track, so we will receive individual ISO tracks only. I discussed why I feel we require one, and they certainly did agree it makes sense, but they were adamant that they cannot provide it due to equipment limitations. So with that, I have started looking for alternatives. The dailies platforms we use unfortunately cannot crash-mix everything together; it's either send everything (making editorial unhappy, as they really just want mono accompanying), or pick one ISO track to send as the mono (equally unhappy). My first thought would be to create a mix track of my own, and use this for our sync. But then there are audio roll names and time code which could be thrown out, and any number of other things that I may not be aware of yet. My research has led me to a number of programs, which mostly split / combine BWF files, and many a Google search have turned up nothing useful. Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way. I was wondering if anybody knew of any software utilities that function as I am describing? Is this something that I should be doing inside of a DAW? Or am I going about this the wrong way? Thank you in advance for any insight. I look forward to hopefully contributing some information to your forum, even if only from the (admittedly) limited perspective of someone closer to the editorial side of the business. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 "On most shows I work on, we usually use a mix track in a poly BWF for our dailies deliverables. However for this show, the sound recordist is unable to a mix track, so we will receive individual ISO tracks only. I discussed why I feel we require one, and they certainly did agree it makes sense, but they were adamant that they cannot provide it due to equipment limitations." Equipment limitations? I can only imagine there are other limitations and inadequacies coming from the production sound mixer. Providing a mix should be mandatory --- I cannot think of any way you could do a mix to expedite getting the dailies out. I suppose if one of the isos is consistently a boom, you might get away with something passable for dailies. A slop "mix" of all isos I think would be a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Perhaps it is a situation with an understaffed and under paid sound department? I can see a situation where a mixer agreed (unwisely) to be a one-man-band and is booming while tracking a bunch of wires and told production there is no way he can provide a proper mix track under such conditions. But then again the type on production that would ask someone to do something that silly doesn't sound like one that would also have post on set doing dailies, so maybe not. I would tell production that the best way to get a proper mix track for dailies would be to have the sound mixer, well.... mix. If that means adding a proper boom op to the department, or even hiring a different mixer that can do the full job, that's probably their best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Get your editor to talk to your producer, who in turn should talk to your mixer about why a mix track cannot be provided. It is not your responsibility to create something for the editor. But if you really want to. See if there is a boom ISO and send that always. It won't always have anything useful, but it's not your job or your correct skillset to create a mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 On most shows I work on, we usually use a mix track in a poly BWF for our dailies deliverables. However for this show, the sound recordist is unable to a mix track, so we will receive individual ISO tracks only. I discussed why I feel we require one, and they certainly did agree it makes sense, but they were adamant that they cannot provide it due to equipment limitations. So with that, I have started looking for alternatives. Hire a different guy, or tell him to rent equipment that can give you a mono mix track. Heck, a nice machine like a Sound Devices 788 or a Zaxcom Nomad would cost maybe $550 a week from most LA or NY suppliers -- even less if you don't need 8+ tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Let's not be cavalier about what the location guy has or is being paid for--this may be a budget issue. If the only thing avail is something like a 744 and the mix track has been expended in order to get more isos, then either a mixdown can be done in ProTools that retains the time stamp (if the orig files were snapped to their TC locations in the timeline) or the editors can carry a 4 track poly instead of the 2 mix in their cut--it's just not that big a deal. I'm trying to think of another common production recorder that would present this problem in more than 4 tracks anymore and can't--even the computer based apps allow for a mixdown to be done as you go. If they are using ProTools on location that's a bit more of a pain but is still doable. Maybe the production could suggest that if the soundie is on a cart that a 2nd machine--a simple thing like a 702 or HDP2 with the same TC as the iso machine could be run for the dailies mix. If the soundie is sending a mono scratch mix to the camera audio then there is a dailies mix too. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjreig Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi everyone, Firstly, I wanted to say a big thank you for your replies. It is greatly appreciated. This film is a walking set of contradictions, and certainly is an interesting experience. It is a Chinese film shooting throughout China, with a well known (in China, anyway) director. The sound department has about 6 people in it, which is the biggest sound department I have ever seen. So understaffed, absolutely not. As for underpaid, well, I can only imagine. Their competency is surely questionable, however, on all fronts of production sound. As for the editorial department, well, it doesn't exist in the traditional sense.They have someone who is an on-set editor, but has been instructed not cut any sequences or do anything. She is there 'just in case'. Like I said, walking contradictions. We are currently now day 20 in production, and I have been fighting tooth and nail to get an editor on board for the show. They have said we will get one in late-April, someone from the States, thank god, but that's a long way away. So with all of that, I have shouldered trying to plan and deliver dailies, which they are adamant they want each day, for a system that is not in place, for a person who isn't actually on the show. I have asked them where the logic is in this, but get a simple shrug of shoulders and told 'It's Chinese way'. Anyway, I apologise for the vent on this one. As for the task at and, I am definitely thinking one of the booms that has the best track will be the best way to go. I will keep at it, and try to push for some change. But like it is said, not my responsibility beyond that. I will be sure to let you know how things resolve, and may consider writing a small opinion piece on the differences between the western and eastern film industries. Thank you again everyone for your insight and advice. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjreig Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi Phillip, Thank you for your reply. They are using a recorder from Roland I think. I am trying to get a model number from them to find out how it all works, and if there is a way they can make said track. The idea of a second small recorder could be a great one, too. As for the camera scratch track, they are not running a feed in. This film is a high budget one (or so I am told, anyway). Their recording system does have 8 tracks, but for some reason cannot allow a mono mix or stereo mix. They tell me they just bought a new one before the show began, as their old one had died (not sure what they were coming from). I am still digging into this, trying to find out more. Best, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi Chris, Have you tried Wave Agent from Sound Devices? http://www.sounddevices.com/products/waveagent/ Best, Vasileios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 HA! a high budget film using a Roland recorder... funny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hi, and welcome cj: " an on-set post guy " " the sound recordist is unable to a mix track, so we will receive individual ISO tracks only. I discussed why I feel we require one, and they certainly did agree it makes sense, but they were adamant that they cannot provide it due to equipment limitations. " we have had the discussion about mix tracks before... my initial impression is you need production sound to meet your reasonable requirements (they agreed it makes sense)... how that comes about is the question at hand: additional equipment (at appropriate additional costs), or perhaps a different production sound crew. --I get the feeling production sound may be coming from zoom h4's..?-- oh, I see it is a Roland... " .They have someone who is an on-set editor, but has been instructed not cut any sequences or do anything. She is there 'just in case'. " this production has some basic workflow flaws... this company seems to be tripping over dollars to pick up pennies... and buying toys instead of tools... perhaps they need a box of clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Wave Agent can't mix down tracks and record a new track with the same TC. (Hello SD--that would be very cool….) It could be the Roland R4, so same issue about track count as with 744. Easiest simplest would be to add another R4 etc and ship TC from the first recorder to the 2nd--it sounds like they have enough manpower to assign someone to that 2nd machine. That isn't how USA and Euro productions record multitrack+mix anymore, but it will work. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAB414 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 A six person sound crew and no mix track? What? Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cory Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I also don't believe that it is equipment limitations holding things back. The Roland R-88 is the only Roland I know with 8 tracks, and you could certainly do a mix track with that... +1 on using a boom iso if you have to choose... Also, I'm really curious-- are all 6 people on the production sound team on one unit or are there two or three units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cory Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 HA! a high budget film using a Roland recorder... funny... Roland makes some great stuff that can certainly get the job done-- it's more about the operator than the toolset in this case (I think).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlempen Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Chris (cjreig), I've written an application just for that! It runs on Mac OS X from 10.6 up, but preferably 10.8 and 10.9, which are the development platforms I worked on. It's still in beta-stage, but mainly for the UI part and error handling of the software. The mixing and Metadata part of the code is working perfectly. I've created it because there's nothing on the market for this exact purpose that maintains all Metadata. My software will batch-inject a mono or stereo mix track into tracks 1 and 2 of the BWF files, or create new BWF files containing only the mix tracks and of course all the Metadata of the original files. You may choose which ISO tracks go into which mix track and it works with BWF files with up to 16 tracks. It also works recursively, so you can batch inject mix tracks into thousand of files during the night... Of course, all Metadata is maintained. I've already used this app on two productions with 100% success for thousands of files. So far it's been tested on Sonosax, Sound Devices, Nagra and Cantar files and I recently made a fix for the Roland recorders. I'm planning to post this app on this forum in a few months when it's ready for prime time. Until then, for those of you who really need it right away, please PM me to get a free evaluation copy and unlock code. Please be aware that this app is still in Beta! Make sure you have a backup copy of your data before processing files with it. Cheers, Jürg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted April 8, 2014 Report Share Posted April 8, 2014 Respect. Hope you do well with it. I can see it being very useful. dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Very cool, Jürg! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlempen Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hey all! Thanks for the thumbs ups! My app will probably be released under the "Beerware" licensing scheme :-) I'm not looking to make any money out of this software. It's just one of my current projects to get into software programming again, as a form of mental challenge. It's like sudoku, but much more brain-bending ;-) Since, as a sound mixer, I'm away from my place so many months every year, I couldn't possibly offer decent customer support to my customers if I were to sell this app. The demo mode of the app is only there so that those of you who find it useful in their workflow need to register it with me in order to get an unlock code, which makes it easier for me to inform them of bugfixes and updates to the app. By the way, my PM is jlempen at me doht com Cheers, Jürg Beerware License.rtf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Childers Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Wow this is súper Cool...i am ver y interested Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjreig Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Chris (cjreig), I've written an application just for that! It runs on Mac OS X from 10.6 up, but preferably 10.8 and 10.9, which are the development platforms I worked on. It's still in beta-stage, but mainly for the UI part and error handling of the software. The mixing and Metadata part of the code is working perfectly. I've created it because there's nothing on the market for this exact purpose that maintains all Metadata. My software will batch-inject a mono or stereo mix track into tracks 1 and 2 of the BWF files, or create new BWF files containing only the mix tracks and of course all the Metadata of the original files. You may choose which ISO tracks go into which mix track and it works with BWF files with up to 16 tracks. It also works recursively, so you can batch inject mix tracks into thousand of files during the night... Of course, all Metadata is maintained. I've already used this app on two productions with 100% success for thousands of files. So far it's been tested on Sonosax, Sound Devices, Nagra and Cantar files and I recently made a fix for the Roland recorders. I'm planning to post this app on this forum in a few months when it's ready for prime time. Until then, for those of you who really need it right away, please PM me to get a free evaluation copy and unlock code. Please be aware that this app is still in Beta! Make sure you have a backup copy of your data before processing files with it. Cheers, Jürg Hi there Jürg, Thank you for your response, and I apologise that this comes attrociously late. Has been a hectic past month. I think what you are doing is a fantastic idea, as after trawling the internet I wasn't able to find any program that did just that. I can already seeing it being used on jobs in the future, especially in situations like these. I will definitely be keeping my eye out, and you can certainly expect me to be lining up with everyone else on JWS! I too am quite bewildered about a six-person (1 unit only!) sound department, and not being able to provide a mix-track as a standard practice. In the end, they changed to using a Zaxcom Fusion, and are finally providing a proper mix on channel 01. As for the 35-odd shooting days of footage that did not have the mix-track, well, I basically dug-in with the assistant editor and manually picked a channel that best matched the vision. Not a fun two weeks, but we got it done, and everyone is happy. The term 'high budget' seems to be relative, I feel, to a production here in China. But I have been on shows in Australia / elsewhere that have had far less budget than this film, with a single-person sound team, and they have managed things better. I am hoping that this experience will help the sound team to really lift their game on future shows. Nobody died in the end, and we got it sorted, so I call it water under the bridge, and am just happy to get on with making the movie. I wanted to say a big thank you to everyone that posted back to me; although I reply late, I am still overwhelmed by the helpful advice I have received here. Thank you so much. I am still very interested in somehow contributing to these forums, even if from my limited perspective on that matter. Best wishes everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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