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hiro nakamura

Can 5DMarkIII handle ERX2TCD

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Hi guys

Gonna have a shoot soon.

The client wants to have a device or two to do

ch1: mixed audio

ch2: timecode signal (they will do the conversion of the wave audio form timecode to actual timecode)

I am just wondering if any one tried this setup on ERX2TCD to a 5D with 3.5 mini jack cable. Sending ref audio and timecode at the same time.

I am worrying the 5D will blend the timecode channel signal to the audio track.

Other cameras such as epic, scarlet , c300, won't, I have tired before.

Thanks

Hiro

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Set the camera audio gain to manual and one notch above zero level. Set tone to erx. Set tc voltage to

Minimum (0.38v if my memory's correct.). Adjust erx's maximum fixed gain so that it line's a bit below the -12 mark on the camera. Camera tape the connector in place and use a slate. And yes workflow test.

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I've done it like Dominique states above and I've also done it using manual level settings. Feed tone, dial it down to a few notches below -12 (the only reference on the "meter"), then drop the TC voltage so it falls roughly in the same spot. I haven't heard any bleed when reducing ht TC to the lower levels (I think .38v is correct), but then I have only plugged headphones in to ensure that there was both an audio and a TC signal reaching the camera.

This should work fine.

Good luck.

Marc

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JT: "There's a little bleed, but not awful. "

BTW, this is a way of feeding a scratch track that is pretty well unusable for final product...

and that can be terrible if production wants a usable track there

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Set the camera audio gain to manual and one notch above zero level. Set tone to erx. Set tc voltage to

Minimum (0.38v if my memory's correct.). Adjust erx's maximum fixed gain so that it line's a bit below the -12 mark on the camera. Camera tape the connector in place and use a slate. And yes workflow test.

 

 

+1

 

this works. just be careful with connectors! tape is good, i also used rubber bands!!

 

-emory

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Thanks guys for your valuable inputs. 

 

Just wanna share with you, I did a workflow test with the crew. 

It worked fine on the test on both audio feed and timecode level.

I set my ERX2TCD to -20 audio and timecode volts to 0.63...I can't remember the exact number, but leveled the -12 mark on the 5D audio inputs. I tested on a pair of HD26...sounded great!

 

Thanks

Hiro

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Thanks guys for your valuable inputs. 

 

Just wanna share with you, I did a workflow test with the crew. 

It worked fine on the test on both audio feed and timecode level.

I set my ERX2TCD to -20 audio and timecode volts to 0.63...I can't remember the exact number, but leveled the -12 mark on the 5D audio inputs. I tested on a pair of HD26...sounded great!

 

Thanks

Hiro

 

Good to know that the workflow test went well. One note though: DO NOT use the scratch track on the 5D for final audio in post! It may sound great on headphones, but I promise you it will not be great in post. It should only be used for sync'ing and editing.

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Good to know that the workflow test went well. One note though: DO NOT use the scratch track on the 5D for final audio in post! It may sound great on headphones, but I promise you it will not be great in post. It should only be used for sync'ing and editing.

 

Can I ask, is this because

 

1) 5D audio track just not good enough

2) ERX2TCD audio quality not good enough

3) Crosstalk between the two channels

 

Or some other reason?  It's always good to get usable audio, no matter where it goes.

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Can I ask, is this because

1) 5D audio track just not good enough

2) ERX2TCD audio quality not good enough

3) Crosstalk between the two channels

Or some other reason? It's always good to get usable audio, no matter where it goes.

Mostly 1, a little bit of 3, and a dash of 2

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hiro: " I did a workflow test with the crew. "

a proper workflow test goes all the way through post production, so, in this case it would confirm that the post production is able to properly deal with the TC on audio track, and what the audio quality is like.

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Good to know that the workflow test went well. One note though: DO NOT use the scratch track on the 5D for final audio in post! It may sound great on headphones, but I promise you it will not be great in post. It should only be used for sync'ing and editing.

 

Yes, the scratch track is only for transcribing and reference, they will sync all my recorded track in post.

 

Thanks Josefrias

 

Hiro

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Can I ask, is this because

1) 5D audio track just not good enough

2) ERX2TCD audio quality not good enough

3) Crosstalk between the two channels

Or some other reason? It's always good to get usable audio, no matter where it goes.

Well, there are a few reasons:

- The audio recorder in the 5D (and any other DSLR, and every camera for the most part) is not one of high quality.

- 5D only records 16-bits / 48kHz. The lower bit-rate gives you limitations in headroom.

- 5D only takes a mic level input, which means no matter how good your input line-level signal is, you will have to put a pad on it to get it to not distort in the camera. This in turns reduces the dynamic range and the signal-to-noise ratio of your recording.

- The ERX only transmits audio bandwidth of 20Hz to 12kHz, which means you are missing the 12kHz - 24kHz frequency content that you would otherwise have. Now, whether or not the content we record as production sound mixers / recordist can be adecuately represented in that range is a topic/discussion for a completely different thread. Most professionals would agree though that it is not, and that you should take advance of the full 24kHz bandwidth that the 48kHz sample rate gives you.

- Crosstalk may be a concern, especially in the situation presented here, but can be reduced significantly to the point of unnoticeability if proper cables are made and proper settings are used.

Yes, the scratch track is only for transcribing and reference, they will sync all my recorded track in post.

Thanks Josefrias

Hiro

Excellent! Yatta! (Sorry couldn't help it)

Cheers,

José

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5D stuff

 

Thanks for that, very informative.  I've worked with these on more than a few occasions but have normally just sent a channel of audio via a Sennheiser Evolution radio (to keep the weight down), while recording decent audio separately.

 

I'm new to Zaxcom (have just ordered a Nomad and ERX2TCD) so didn't know the bandwidth available on the latter device.  I do now, thanks to your post.

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Thanks for that, very informative.  I've worked with these on more than a few occasions but have normally just sent a channel of audio via a Sennheiser Evolution radio (to keep the weight down), while recording decent audio separately.

 

I'm new to Zaxcom (have just ordered a Nomad and ERX2TCD) so didn't know the bandwidth available on the latter device.  I do now, thanks to your post.

 

The ERX are great devices, and the audio they provide sounds excellent, especially since there is not a lot of stuff happnening over the 12kHz mark in the type of work we do, but it should be noted that they should only be used for 'Scratch Track' audio when recording audio to camera. Also, the fact that you can output TC as well is amazing, making for a very compact scratch track and TC sync box in one small device.

 

They also work well as 'IFB' receivers for director, boom op, producers, etc... I think you will not be dissapointed with your new Nomad and ERX.

 

Cheers,

J.

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Jose: " 5D only takes a mic level input, "

and it (they) are unbalanced...

and the (just about non-existant) mic pre's don't really do a credible 16 bits...so even it it made 24 bit files, they would not be 24 bit quality audio...

" missing the 12kHz - 24kHz frequency content that you would otherwise have. "

actually that is really more like 10kHz-20kHz...

few audio devices, including the usual suspects mixers, etc. have much, if any, usable audio above 20kHz, and of course few, if any, adult humans can hear even all the way to 20kHz.

" the full 24kHz bandwidth that the 48kHz sample rate gives you. "

here we go again...

that is theoretical bandwidth, and in practice it is really 20kHz bandwidth.

" Crosstalk may be a concern, especially in the situation presented here, but can be reduced significantly to the point of unnoticeability if proper cables are made and proper settings are used. "

there is plenty of it depends in there, as some of the crosstalk typically occurs in the mic preamp electronics, such as they are,  and of course, once the TC signal level is reduced below crosstalk, it may prove to be unusable as a TC signal further alsong the workflow...

hiro: " they will sync all my recorded track in post. " or not.

marc w: " Timecode. Yeah... "The railroad tracks of any professional production." "

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Jose: " 5D only takes a mic level input, "

and it (they) are unbalanced...

and the (just about non-existant) mic pre's don't really do a credible 16 bits...so even it it made 24 bit files, they would not be 24 bit quality audio...

" missing the 12kHz - 24kHz frequency content that you would otherwise have. "

actually that is really more like 10kHz-20kHz...

few audio devices, including the usual suspects mixers, etc. have much, if any, usable audio above 20kHz, and of course few, if any, adult humans can hear even all the way to 20kHz.

" the full 24kHz bandwidth that the 48kHz sample rate gives you. "

here we go again...

that is theoretical bandwidth, and in practice it is really 20kHz bandwidth.

" Crosstalk may be a concern, especially in the situation presented here, but can be reduced significantly to the point of unnoticeability if proper cables are made and proper settings are used. "

there is plenty of it depends in there, as some of the crosstalk typically occurs in the mic preamp electronics, such as they are,  and of course, once the TC signal level is reduced below crosstalk, it may prove to be unusable as a TC signal further alsong the workflow...

hiro: " they will sync all my recorded track in post. " or not.

marc w: " Timecode. Yeah... "The railroad tracks of any professional production." "

 

- 5D only does 16-bits, no 24. I agree the mic-pre's are very low quality (this was designed more as a camera than anything else), and additionally, the ADC in them are not any better.

- I understand that the sampling rate only provides a theoretical bandwidth of half, and that in practice, due to manufacturer's designs (and based on our actual hearing ability), it is more like up to 20kHz, but my statement is in regard to what the ERX won't reproduce. According to the ERX manual, it has a frequency response range of 60Hz - 12kHz, so that means, anything above 12kHz won't be there.

- Lastly, regarding crosstalk: that's why I started the sentence that it may be a concern, because as you state. it largely depends on many factors. In my experience I never could get a completely clean audio track without TC bleed on DSLRs.

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