plug-on AES3 recorder

[Bruce Watson]

The new equipment anouncements (Lectro L series, Juiced Link Little DARling, etc.) inspired me, for better or worse, to ask about something I've wanted but haven't yet found.

 

When I'm trying to work small, using a MixPre-D (for usually just one channel), I've often wanted a tiny AES3 recorder. Just plug it into the correct XLR jack on the MixPre-D, set it to AES output, and record to an SDHC card (or two). Just a tiny two channel digital bit-bucket. By eliminating the analog circuits, it should save size and expense and hopefully improve audio quality. By eliminating nearly all the controls (it's a digital bit stream -- what's to control?) the entire unit could probably fit in a space a little longer than the battery, and only slightly wider then the SDHC card. I'm thinking something that looks more or less like a Lectro plug-on transmitter, only smaller. A plug-on recorder if you will.

 

Now I'm really seriously a newbie, and I'll probably never make it to the serious profession level of the vast majority of this board. So I know that most of you would be ROFL at a device like this that only records digital AES3 input. But... does a tiny bit-bucket like this exist?

 

I still wonder why SD hasn't made one; it seems like a natural to sell into the same market that bought all those MixPre-Ds. Like... me.

[rich]

Perhaps a Zaxcom ZFR100 with STA42 will do what you want?

[chrisnewton]

the recent wave of recorder/mixer combos (633, MAXX etc) have made it easy to record digital files painlessly and right in the box. I like your idea though. could be useful. the ZAX unit is great, but a simpler, possibly smaller and cheaper  solution might have a place. like a USB stick sized device. going AES would be great, especially because you would be bypassing any recorder preamps, which are the limiting factor for quality in the Zooms, etc.

[Tom Visser]

Zaxcom TRX742 w/ transmitter disabled - or enabled for wireless hop when needed.

[Bruce Watson]

Perhaps a Zaxcom ZFR100 with STA42 will do what you want?

Sorta, except for all the analog circuitry that I don't want to have to use and don't want to have to buy. I just want a straight up digital bit bucket whose only input is an AES3 format bit stream. 

 

I'd like to trade off all that analog circuitry (and give up all that flexibility) for a simpler, cheaper, smaller, lighter device. But... maybe I'm completely daft and there isn't a market for such a single minded recorder. IDK, which is why I started this thread -- I figure if anyone knows, it's the people on this site.

[Bruce Watson]

the ZAX unit is great, but a simpler, possibly smaller and cheaper  solution might have a place. like a USB stick sized device. going AES would be great, especially because you would be bypassing any recorder preamps, which are the limiting factor for quality in the Zooms, etc.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

[Wandering Ear]

Sonosax makes and 8 channel aes only recorder that is about the size of a wallet. Otherwise the trx742 is as close as i've seen. The 742 works great for this btw. I use it as a 2 channel ultra small field recorder for ambiences etc..

[Crussell]

You could go AES out to SPDIF input on a Tascam DR-100 (though I own and don't much care for that recorder in general)

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[Bruce Watson]

You could go AES out to SPDIF input on a Tascam DR-100 (though I own and don't much care for that recorder in general)

 

I could. People apparently do. But the electrical specifications are different. So to be sure it would work reliably, I'd want to use an AES/EBU to S/PDIF format converter of some kind.

 

When it's all done, I'd end up with a much bigger recorder that includes mics and analog electronics which I don't want and wouldn't use, a second box for format conversion, and the cables to join it all together. This combination would be very bag-hostile. And at this point, probably less reliable than a simple short XLR cable between mixer analog line out and recorder analog line in.

[Crussell]

Exactly. It's why I've never tried to make that setup work for me.

But I did consider that it one point.

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[DodoHu]

Sonosax makes and 8 channel aes only recorder that is about the size of a wallet. Otherwise the trx742 is as close as i've seen. The 742 works great for this btw. I use it as a 2 channel ultra small field recorder for ambiences etc..

 

I am looking exactly for this, to use the trx742 as a recorder on a GH4 with my sanken cms-10. It would make a very neat small unsuspicious setup. But the problem is, that there is no timecode or monitor signal out from the trx742 to sync it up with the cam. Does anyone know, wether you can tap this signal somewhere in this box?

 

PS: I know I could use an ERX100/200. but there is just no space for another box on the cam.

[glenn]

TRX742 will accept AES3 or analog and it will transmit to the ERX for camera scratch track and TC. It is as the thread title said a "plug on AES3 recorder".

 

A very perfect solution IMHO

 

Glenn

[DodoHu]

TRX742 will accept AES3 or analog and it will transmit to the ERX for camera scratch track and TC. It is as the thread title said a "plug on AES3 recorder".

 

A very perfect solution IMHO

 

Glenn

 

That is right, Glenn. It is almost perfect, but not, if you don't want an extra ERX on a small cam. Perfect would be, if it had a small stereo-jack out with tc and scratch track. I would go long ways to get that jack. I would even open up the box, weld a cable in an loose the warranty – if I knew where to tap in.

[Tom Visser]

Wait, are you still using a MixPre-D?  Just take the tape / DSLR output to the camera.

[DodoHu]

Wait, are you still using a MixPre-D?  Just take the tape / DSLR output to the camera.

 

I did not mention that I would like to sync up my two trx900la2 with the cam mic too. 

[Tom Visser]

It is technically possible to set the timecode source on Zaxcom transmitters as the audio input too, so having never tried it, I would imagine that you make a custom cable to accept a line level input and use a timecode generator to set timecode or even something like the Denecke timecode toolbox app to "jumpstart" timecode on all devices at the same time.

[Jay Rose]

Would you accept a non-standard file format for the tiny XLR-plug-with-SD-slot? It could then be translated to standard .wav or .aif (or .bwf, if you manually entered timecode and other data) in a computer utility that came with it.

 

As I understand it, the AES serial bitstream is not that close to any audio file format*, so a simple UART-like solution wouldn't cut it. And there wouldn't be enough sales of this plug-on recorder to justify a custom chip or a lot of development. But if you're willing to accept an intermediate format -- and pay a lot more than an XLR plug would look like it's worth -- it conceivably could be done.

 

*IIRC. I'm not where I can check right now.

[Bruce Watson]

Would you accept a non-standard file format for the tiny XLR-plug-with-SD-slot? It could then be translated to standard .wav or .aif (or .bwf, if you manually entered timecode and other data) in a computer utility that came with it.

 

Just about any system-on-chip available now contains (way, way, way more than) enough compute power and memory (volatile and not) to be able to do the formatting on the fly. If you have to write a computer utility to do the conversion, no reason not to run said utility on the chip in the recorder. So to answer your question directly, no. I would want this device to give me .wav files.

 

Look at the Tascam DR-100mkII. It will do most of what I want -- take an AES3 feed from an SD mixer, and give me a .wav file on an SDHC card. If... I run the digital signal through an intermediate converter box to convert voltages and impedances from the AES3 requirements to the S/PDIF requirements. Yes, people have reported that they have run AES3 outputs into an S/PDIF input with no problem, but if this is for serious work, would any of us really want to take that chance? And once you add the converter box and the extra cables, your bag is trashed. No one would want to do this. And from what I can tell, hardly anyone is. It's far more convenient to just run line out from the mixer to line in on the recorder, and incur the small analog processing penalty to sound quality.

 

So what I want is nearly the same as what the DR-100 already does. I just want to eliminate some things that I don't need. Like the mics. And all of the analog circuits. And all the analog controls. And the size, weight, and power draw. I just want it to take the AES3 digital feed from the mixer, and give me *.wav files on an SDHC card (two channels, a stereo pair) that can easily be imported into a DAW. And that's really my proposed device's only function.

 

For Tascom at least, the custom chips are already there in the DR-100. The computer processing is already there. The SDHC card reader/writer is already there, and those device drivers already written and tested. I suspect that the hardest part of doing this is design of the case, and the circuit board(s). The rest would seem to be done (for Tascam anyway). Yes, I know it's never that easy. But I've done stuff like this before; it's imminently doable.

 

SD could do this also. They've all of what I need in the 633, already designed, tested, and in production. Except for the case, and the circuit board(s). I just need 1% of what the 633 can do, and in a suitably much smaller, lighter form factor.

 

Not holding my breath for either Tascam or SD to make such a small digital bit-bucket recorder though. Or anyone else. But if someone decides to make one, I'll certainly take a look!

[DodoHu]

Would you accept a non-standard file format for the tiny XLR-plug-with-SD-slot?

 

I would have no problem with converting the .zax file into a .wav in post. I would record on all devices, trx742 and the two trx900la and then sync them all with the footage. 

 

@Bruce Watson: Does the Tascam DR-100II feature timecode? 

[Jeff Wexler]

"SD could do this also. They've all of what I need in the 633, already designed, tested, and in production. Except for the case, and the circuit board(s). I just need 1% of what the 633 can do, and in a suitably much smaller, lighter form factor.

 

Not holding my breath for either Tascam or SD to make such a small digital bit-bucket recorder though. Or anyone else. But if someone decides to make one, I'll certainly take a look!"

 

Bruce, I must be thick or something, I just can't seem to figure out what it is you want --- and even more baffling is the suggestion that some company, let's say Sound Devices or Tascam, should take a recorder they have designed and remove 99% of its functionality.

 

Taking a wild guess at what you want to accomplish, it seems there are several devices from Zaxcom already that could do what you want to do: all the transmitters are timecode jammable recorders, the ZFR is a standalone really compact recorder, etc., etc.

 

I would look into the capabilities of these Zaxcom devices and you might find that with very little effort they could do what you want to do. The alternative, holding your breath until Sound Devices guts the fully capable 633 recorder and build the 1% of its capabilities into a small box just for you, seems a little bit ridiculous.

[studiomprd]

what JW just said...

[Jay Rose]

Just about any system-on-chip available now contains (way, way, way more than) enough compute power and memory (volatile and not) to be able to do the formatting on the fly. If you have to write a computer utility to do the conversion, no reason not to run said utility on the chip in the recorder. So to answer your question directly, no. I would want this device to give me .wav files.

 

 

So write the utility yourself, and run it on some miniature CPU-on-a-board gadget.

 

Or are you willing to pay five hundred bucks or more for this plug-on recorder? You're asking for a lot of development expense, and debugging, and beta-testing, that'll at best will be amortized over maybe a few dozen units per year.

 

There's a lot more market power for something like the Tascam DR100. They can sell it to us, to the MI market, to zoom-on-a-boom filmmakers, to businesspeople, to daddies who want to record their kids' concerts. In literally thousands of dealers around the world.

 

This unit of yours requires a professional who already has AES/EBU gear, and wants to add a miniature file recorder. Sell an accessory unit that adapts s/pdif coax; that's just a voltage/balancing buffer that really can be built into an XLR cable jack (with a power pigtail). There stlll won't be that many of us.

 

In fact, rule me out: I'd just as soon pay a little more for a combination mixer/recorder with pro features in one box.

 

Comparing what Tascam can do for the money, to what you want, just isn't realistic. 

 

--

 

Manufacturers reading this thread, feel free to revise my price estimate...

[old school]

Keith & Mick wrote a song that deals with this very issue.

CrewC

 

[Rich Reilly]

I'm with you , Bruce. With SD's pedigree in audio for video field recording, always wondered where they figured the digi outs were destined for. Sometimes cameras have those inputs..but not common. Many have used it to supplement their Tascam 680's SPDIF in etc. but was that the intention?

 

"holding your breath until Sound Devices guts the fully capable 633 recorder and build the 1% of its capabilities into a small box just for you, seems a little bit ridiculous."

 

Maybe.. but the MixPre-d preceded the 633. And there are other sources(mixers, preamps) that had (at time of release) or have digital outs that could be recordable to a reasonably flexible no-computer "bit bucket"

[Tom Duffy]

The MI users come up with this idea every year as well - a bit bucket for them to use with a boutique mic-pre and A/D converter.

But they don't want to spend more than $99 on it - "just take the microphone off the top of the hand-held recorder and put a digital in on instead".

It's such a niche though.  Charge $99 and you'd sell a handful and lose a lot of money in development.

Charge $499 (because it's going to be used with 4 figure converters) and everybody says "I'll just use the S/PDIF in on the DR-680 or DR-100mkII and have it to use it for other things as well."

 

It's a fine concept, but I don't see it ever making money for a manufacturer.