Are pro wireless mics too expensive in 2014? Your thoughts?

[chris_bollard]

I found an old Lectro price list recently in a folder stacked away (Aussie prices as that's where I live) from 1998. It confirmed my recollection of what prices used to be. UCR195D with UM195 was $7,165 ex tax. That's one fixed frequency (still great unit if the frequency works I your area) for double the price of current 411/UM or SQV kit.

Prices to high? Really I think not.

Ask any camera guy that owns their own gear how much their XD setup cost. Or their set of prime lens, and how quickly the favorite flavour of camera changes; C300/F55. It's almost iPhone release pace now. At least we in the audio realm get more than 18 months of currency from our purchases.

[Malcolm Davies Amps CAS]

Lectro sells at one price, in fixed USD, to all dealers. There are no Euro markups. Any landed pricing differences are due to customs, VAT, shipping, etc. The playing fields are as flat as we can make them.

Best,

Larry Fisher

Lectro

Don't think the fault lies at your end Larry. If you supply goods there is vat applied to the landed goods. The supplier who then sells to the end user is setting a price higher than the suppliers price before his discount which then attracts vat again. Not a problem if you are vat registered but if you aren't then you have to stand this. Taking an example with your equipment, anyone buying in the US would save a substantial amount on buying in the EU.

Regards,

[LarryF]

Hi Malcom,

Dealers on your side of the pond have also told us that they have higher "social" costs for employees and various taxes on businesses, income, inventory, working hours, etc. It sounds reasonable.  More than a few Euro dealers have wanted additional discounts so they can match US prices after their extra costs. As you can imagine, this grinds against our (my) sense of fair play. Non of this to defend the pricing because it is what it is, but there are certainly political and social factors outside our control and some outside the control of the dealers.

 

The good news is, after a few more years of the nanny state expanding in the US, prices will be equalized.

Best Regards,

Larry F

Lectro

[Malcolm Davies Amps CAS]

Hi Malcom,

Dealers on your side of the pond have also told us that they have higher "social" costs for employees and various taxes on businesses, income, inventory, working hours, etc. It sounds reasonable.  More than a few Euro dealers have wanted additional discounts so they can match US prices after their extra costs. As you can imagine, this grinds against our (my) sense of fair play. Non of this to defend the pricing because it is what it is, but there are certainly political and social factors outside our control and some outside the control of the dealers.

 

The good news is, after a few more years of the nanny state expanding in the US, prices will be equalized.

Best Regards,

Larry F

Lectro

Just for info Larry.

A quick check with a couple of dealers over here and they are about £600 ($990) more expensive than a

US dealer for the double receiver and two double battery SM transmitters.

[Constantin]

Don't think the fault lies at your end Larry. If you supply goods there is vat applied to the landed goods. The supplier who then sells to the end user is setting a price higher than the suppliers price before his discount which then attracts vat again. Not a problem if you are vat registered but if you aren't then you have to stand this. Taking an example with your equipment, anyone buying in the US would save a substantial amount on buying in the EU.

Regards,

just to quickly clarify this, because it sounds like VAT is applied twice. The dealer is charged VAT (in this first case an EU tax) upon bringing the goods into the EU. They can reclaim this each month. The dealer sells this on to the end-user, who in the case of audio pros, will most likely be a freelancer or a company. The dealer applies VAT, but the freelancer can most likely reclaim this, too. So VAT does NOT affect prices in the professional world.

Apart from the "social costs" as mentioned by Larry, there is usually one importer per country, who sells the goods either directly to the end-user or to another dealer. This dealer also needs to make some profit of this and the importer does, too. Plus, legally the importer IS the manufacturer in their country. So they have to provide warranty (which must be one year at least), do basic repairs, have some stock and so on. There are MANY regulations re recycling (not just RoHS), product safety and so. The local importer is responsible for this in their country. I don't know how much of this they can pass on to the US manufacturer. But if anything goes terribly wrong with a product in the EU, the government here will turn to whoever brought it into the EU. All of this costs money

[LarryF]

Hi Constatin,

In genera and specifically in Europe, Lectro does not try to go through distributors. We are trying to keep the distribution as direct and responsible as possible. You are absolutely correct about the majority of pro products.

Best,

Larry F

Lectro

[Larry Kaltenbach]

I threw this question of current pro wireless pricing out there in a somewhat generic sense in hopes of seeing a diversity (couldn't resist) of responses. In just over 24 hours there's already a wealth of diverse thought put into the question. Thanks to those who responded already.

 

I'll put my follow-up two cents in, putting some thought to some responses...

 

RE: John Blankenship's "If you're underpricing your services, then the best wireless are too expensive -- if you're charging proper rates, they're not."

 

Myself, I charge the going rate of $650-$850 in the NYC market for mid-level work (everything falling outside of low-budget and features/episodic/commercials), and can not afford the "best" wireless. For me "best" would be the new Zaxcom line, based on size, weight and feature set. To replace my 9 Lectros (why would I unless the FCC takes away my frequency blocks?) I would have to spend about $36,000. Unless I was exclusively doing features, episodic or commercials I would never make all of my money back on them, let alone turn a profit on them. 

 

Several people here pointed out that many production items like tripods, lights and lenses haven't dropped much, if any, in price. Unfortunately, many production managers don't seem to be accounting for those costs. I'm going to try using the tripod/lights/lens points in future deal negotiations.

 

RE: Afewmoreyears comment, "If Sound Devices can adjust pricing with such a big leap in Technology, packaging and usefulness, why not our Radio mic companies....  I think at least on long established systems, there should be some reduction, but easy for me to say."

 

Valid point. Sound Devices seems to have dropped disruptive technology into the recorder market with the 970 at $4500 street, with 64 tracks of capability. I'm not a feature, episodic, or reality guy, but I don't need to be one to see that the 970 is going to take away some mixer/recorder sales from other manufacturers currently dominating those markets. It's the 970 that made me think, "Wow, if only wireless were disrupted like THAT".

 

RE : Jay Rose stating, "Compare that to how many professional radios get sold every year. Development costs per unit are significant, and there's a lot of hand assembly / short-run machining. Our favorite radio companies -- which are tiny, particularly when compared to Panny and Sony -- have to charge what they do just to stay in business."

 

I wonder how a small company like Teradek turns out exceptionally good wireless video transmitter/receiver devices at about $2,500 each, about half the cost of competing devices. It can't be because of economy-of-scale; I don't see may cam ops or production companies with Teradeks, let alone multiples of them in their kit, like we see with wireless mics. Yet, there they are, in business, selling units. I suppose Teradek has leveraged general advancements in electronics, that benefit all manufacturers and users of all electronic devices, to turn out these devices. Perhaps they do it with "cheap" overseas labor. Could Teradek pull off the same trick with wireless mics?

 

Like several people here stated, there's tools for every budget and type of production. Down the road, if and when the FCC forces my hand into re-buying a perfectly functional bunch of products, my wireless mics, I'm probably going to have to buy some not-as-robust, not as reliable, not-as-good-sounding replacements to serve the increasingly unrealistic budget expectations of my mid-level clients. Unless, of course, some disruptive product comes along. Or, I buy some 2014-era high-end wireless used. For the end-user, there will always be a way to work this out, which unfortunately isn't so good for the established manufacturers or retailers looking to sell new product.

[Johnny Karlsson]

To replace my 9 Lectros (why would I unless the FCC takes away my frequency blocks?) I would have to spend about $36,000. 

Well, if you take into consideration that you can sell your existing Lectros for 80% of their original purchase price, then that number would be reduced considerably. Also, how much rental money you have made during the time you have owned them.  

NOW - Just think about what it would do to your resell value and rental value, should Lectro suddenly slash their prices in half for new units. Yep - I think they should absolutely NOT lower their prices (even if they could).

[andrewstone]

 

I wonder how a small company like Teradek turns out exceptionally good wireless video transmitter/receiver devices at about $2,500 each, about half the cost of competing devices. It can't be because of economy-of-scale; I don't see may cam ops or production companies with Teradeks, let alone multiples of them in their kit, like we see with wireless mics. Yet, there they are, in business, selling units. I suppose Teradek has leveraged general advancements in electronics, that benefit all manufacturers and users of all electronic devices, to turn out these devices. Perhaps they do it with "cheap" overseas labor. Could Teradek pull off the same trick with wireless mics?

 

 

The issue around wireless video transmitter/receivers is a complicated and messy one. It in fact highlights why you as a profession don't want wireless audio to engage "in the race to the bottom". Teradek is only part of the story.

 

There are two main issues with video transmitters from an owner/operator perspective. One is producers are bashing down Ops to INCLUDE these transmitters as part of the basic day rate of operation. Second, new players in the market are dropping their prices like mad to get into the game and including wireless as a freebee and giving day rates of $500 to $800 for the Camera/Steadicam Operator AND gear which is often in the range of $30,000 to +$150,000.

 

A good wireless system which could stand up to the rigors of set with lots of concrete walls and RF out the ying yang would run you north of 10 grand. For the past 3 years or so Teradek and others have come out with wireless systems ranging from $2000 to $6000 and Producers started asking for wireless video for free. Some did it and now it is a HUGE problem for the owner/operators. These cheaper systems have not been as good as the more expensive ones. Some have managed with them but now many are upgrading to a system in the $8000. Unfortunately, the precedent has been set. Meanwhile many people have been screwing around buying these sub-standard video transmitter/receivers that have come out the past few years and are buying yet again. You see the problem?

[Constantin]

Hi Constatin,

In genera and specifically in Europe, Lectro does not try to go through distributors. We are trying to keep the distribution as direct and responsible as possible. You are absolutely correct about the majority of pro products.

Best,

Larry F

Lectro

Hi Larry, thanks that's very intereting. So basically, every dealer (or at least most dealers) are buying their Lectro gear directly from you?

[LarryF]

Hi Larry, thanks that's very intereting. So basically, every dealer (or at least most dealers) are buying their Lectro gear directly from you?

Yes.

LEF

[LarryF]

Hi Larry, thanks that's very intereting. So basically, every dealer (or at least most dealers) are buying their Lectro gear directly from you?

One exception: Some dealers will resell (or trade lines) to other dealers, as always. As long as we don't hear complaints from customers, we exercise benign neglect. Customer complaints about a dealer are taken very seriously. The original dealer is held responsible. It says good things about the dealers, franchised or not that this is extremely rare. And the customers, now that I think about it.

LEF

[Larry Kaltenbach]

Anyone interested in all of my BLOCK 26 wireless, for 80% of the current new street price?

[robertw]

The good news is, after a few more years of the nanny state expanding in the US, prices will be equalized.

Best Regards,

Larry F

Lectro

Thanks, you've just helped me reduce the list of manufacturers that I'll consider by one.

[afewmoreyears]

Larry,

 

 It's not nice calling the GREAT state of New Mexico a Nanny State.....LOL.... 

I had no idea it is expanding....

[Mirror]

Cameras sell more and have a shorter useful life. Radio mics that are built well function well and are durable, and will out live a camera many times over (assuming the FCC hasnt stepped in and messed things up with our spectrum).

 

I dont mind keeping prices high because it makes them (and our job to some extent) out of the reach of any people that otherwise would flood our industry and potentially become competition for our jobs. Yes, it takes years of experience to have years of experience, but all a producer sees is saving $$$ most of the time, and will go with the lower cost person, even if they get burnt time after time.

 

+1

[Mirror]

Hi Malcom,

Dealers on your side of the pond have also told us that they have higher "social" costs for employees and various taxes on businesses, income, inventory, working hours, etc. It sounds reasonable.  More than a few Euro dealers have wanted additional discounts so they can match US prices after their extra costs. As you can imagine, this grinds against our (my) sense of fair play. Non of this to defend the pricing because it is what it is, but there are certainly political and social factors outside our control and some outside the control of the dealers.

 

The good news is, after a few more years of the nanny state expanding in the US, prices will be equalized.

Best Regards,

Larry F

Lectro

 

So I guess all that free social stuff that Americans like to admire about euro countries aren't all that free in the end.  

[robertw]

Larry,

It's not nice calling the GREAT state of New Mexico a Nanny State.....LOL....

I had no idea it is expanding....

So I guess all that free social stuff that Americans like to admire about euro countries aren't all that free in the end.

Not sure what's driving these posts.

The owner of Lectrosonics has been clear in this thread about his politics. We disagree on such a fundamental level (I believe in unions, a livable minimum wage and universal medical care) that I have said that I will not buy his products.

Don't know why my comment has now led to a LOL about the "nanny state" and someone suggesting that Americans are so stupid that they don't know that citizens of all of the European countries, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders pay for universal health care with their taxes.

Gee whiz, that is indeed how universal medical care is paid for, and - big surprise - none of the countries that have it - are about to give it up.

In 20 years, Obama's legacy will be seen as health care.

[ao]

 

I threw this question of current pro wireless pricing out there in a somewhat generic sense in hopes of seeing a diversity (couldn't resist) of responses. In just over 24 hours there's already a wealth of diverse thought put into the question. Thanks to those who responded already.

 

I'll put my follow-up two cents in, putting some thought to some responses...

 

RE: John Blankenship's "If you're underpricing your services, then the best wireless are too expensive -- if you're charging proper rates, they're not."

 

Myself, I charge the going rate of $650-$850 in the NYC market for mid-level work (everything falling outside of low-budget and features/episodic/commercials), and can not afford the "best" wireless. For me "best" would be the new Zaxcom line, based on size, weight and feature set. To replace my 9 Lectros (why would I unless the FCC takes away my frequency blocks?) I would have to spend about $36,000. Unless I was exclusively doing features, episodic or commercials I would never make all of my money back on them, let alone turn a profit on them. 

 

Several people here pointed out that many production items like tripods, lights and lenses haven't dropped much, if any, in price. Unfortunately, many production managers don't seem to be accounting for those costs. I'm going to try using the tripod/lights/lens points in future deal negotiations.

 

RE: Afewmoreyears comment, "If Sound Devices can adjust pricing with such a big leap in Technology, packaging and usefulness, why not our Radio mic companies....  I think at least on long established systems, there should be some reduction, but easy for me to say."

 

Valid point. Sound Devices seems to have dropped disruptive technology into the recorder market with the 970 at $4500 street, with 64 tracks of capability. I'm not a feature, episodic, or reality guy, but I don't need to be one to see that the 970 is going to take away some mixer/recorder sales from other manufacturers currently dominating those markets. It's the 970 that made me think, "Wow, if only wireless were disrupted like THAT".

 

RE : Jay Rose stating, "Compare that to how many professional radios get sold every year. Development costs per unit are significant, and there's a lot of hand assembly / short-run machining. Our favorite radio companies -- which are tiny, particularly when compared to Panny and Sony -- have to charge what they do just to stay in business."

 

I wonder how a small company like Teradek turns out exceptionally good wireless video transmitter/receiver devices at about $2,500 each, about half the cost of competing devices. It can't be because of economy-of-scale; I don't see may cam ops or production companies with Teradeks, let alone multiples of them in their kit, like we see with wireless mics. Yet, there they are, in business, selling units. I suppose Teradek has leveraged general advancements in electronics, that benefit all manufacturers and users of all electronic devices, to turn out these devices. Perhaps they do it with "cheap" overseas labor. Could Teradek pull off the same trick with wireless mics?

 

Like several people here stated, there's tools for every budget and type of production. Down the road, if and when the FCC forces my hand into re-buying a perfectly functional bunch of products, my wireless mics, I'm probably going to have to buy some not-as-robust, not as reliable, not-as-good-sounding replacements to serve the increasingly unrealistic budget expectations of my mid-level clients. Unless, of course, some disruptive product comes along. Or, I buy some 2014-era high-end wireless used. For the end-user, there will always be a way to work this out, which unfortunately isn't so good for the established manufacturers or retailers looking to sell new product.

 

because of the noisy fans in the teradek systems, they are not suitable for drama or doc work in quiet environments, and as such, I don't consider it to be a professional product. 

[Mirror]

Not sure what's driving these posts.

The owner of Lectrosonics has been clear in this thread about his politics. We disagree on such a fundamental level (I believe in unions, minimum wage and universal medical care) that I have said that I will not buy his products. Don't know why my comment has now led to a LOL and someone suggesting that Americans are so stupid that they don't know that Europeans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders pay for health care with their taxes.

 

Yes, Americans are that stupid.  Most Libs want their cake and eat it too.  They think all that free stuff that politicians buy votes with will be paid by someone else, like evil, rich corporations.  In fact, the stupid Americans will pay for it themselves. They don't realize that nothing is free, you pay for it every time with higher taxes and higher prices at the store.  This model is already in practice and can be seen in the countries you mentioned. The run of the mill lib voter only looks at one side of the equation - the so-called "Free stuff" side.

 

But don't worry yourself though, your wish of American socialism will come to pass very soon.  

 

As a very smart woman once said, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of others peoples money."

[robertw]

Mirror,

Don't want to get into this.

The owner of Lectrosonics has made his political views clear, we fundamentally disagree, and as a result I won't be buying his products.

There's a company called DPA, which some people think make OK mics, and which has a corporate view that I find more in line with my own.

It's that simple.

[Mirror]

Mirror,

Don't want to get into this.

The owner of Lectrosonics has made his political views clear, we fundamentally disagree, and as a result I won't be buying his products.

There's a company called DPA, which some people think make OK mics, and which has a corporate view that I find more in line with my own.

It's that simple.

 

OK.  But for the record, you're the one that made a post that begged an answer.

 

Cheers

[robertw]

OK.  But for the record, you're the one that made a post that begged an answer.

 

Cheers

No, what started the discussion was this:

 

The good news is, after a few more years of the nanny state expanding in the US, prices will be equalized.

Best Regards,

Larry F

Lectro

[chris_bollard]

I'm sure Lectro can survive without your custom.

As for Teradeck I see them as a work in progress. Latency is pretty bad (5-10 seconds) and requires rebooting over course of shoot day and the range is around 10-15 metres. But all in all that's what you can expect from a wifi device.

[fieldmixer]

Do you mean 0.5-1.0 second? I've never seen a 5 full second latency. For the sake of accurate reporting has anyone else experienced a latency of the duration that Chris is stating?