A conversation

[soundtrane]

XXX

Its a super low budget feature

46 days of shooting

 

I get a flat 6,000 USD

so it is super low

 

 

 

Vin

6k USD for 46 days??

 

 

XXX

Im doing it for the free ride and after i am going to travel up the coast into SE asia

yes its super olow

it is about 200k budget

 

 

Vin

I'm sorry man, but this is not right

 

XXX

I know

trust me I know

 

Vin

what you are doing is you are undermining the professional work done out here

for some personal benefit

 

XXX

I respectfully disagree

 

Vin

what do you mean by saying 'you are doing it for the free ride' ?

anyways, i am not in a position to offer you help with boom operators, because the guys i work with are top class and they will not work for the money i KNOW they will be offered on this project.

however, if you really wish to i can give you their numbers and you can talk to them and find out for yourself.

but honestly, i AM not happy with the idea of people coming in to this country and working for LESSER than normal rates in this country, ALTHOUGH Indian rates are much lower compared to UK for example.  after all, a GBP can get you a 100 Indian rupees nowadays. [i thought he was from UK, but he is from the US. referring to currency exchange rates]

i'd certainly like to hear your disagreement, if you choose to let me know what it is.

 

 

XXX

I think think these guys have the money to hire a pro there

do not have the money*

And I understand it upsetting you, but they are also bringing all the Key Positions in from the US

 

Vin

so why did they not choose to get a boom op from the US?

 

XXX

I look at this as a personal benefit for myself and my career

I do want to bring my boom op

 

Vin

because they would have had to pay for his tickets, his hotel, etc and pay him a decent rate??

 

XXX

yes

 

 

Vin

ha! the problem is YOU are not on anywhere close to a decent rate bro

how do you expect a boom op to be?

 

 

XXX

look i know about the rate

i dont need to hear retoric about it

thank you for your help

 

Vin

you know what is wrong?

 

XXX

this is for my career

 

Vin

it's not rhetoric.

 

 

XXX

and i am not sorry for that

 

Vin

it is about SENSIBLE ways to get to your career and make something out of it bro

you are feeding the bottom

nothing can be worse

 

XXX

No, I am getting paid to travel

 

Vin

before you go off thinking you have done something amazing... yeah, so you got paid to travel to do WHAT?

 

 

XXX

I get a working vacation and at the same time I get to live in a beautiful villa and wander around southern india

 

Vin

work 2 months on a feature film on a SHITTY budget for sound and then you go on a holiday with your 6000 bucks to thailand??? is that what it is?

 

XXX

then im going to travel by foot to vietnam and they these guys are going to pay for my plane ticket back to NY

 

Vin

you know what? i thnk you are so outta line man

you have NO idea what you are doing.

 

XXX

I have every idea of what im doing, I am not out of line

 

Vin

one thing is clear - being a professional sound mixer is NOT what you are heading towards with this attitude.

 

XXX

you have your opinion and yeah it sucks

im taking a job from someone

 

Vin

how old are you bro?

 

XXX

but that is this game

 

Vin

24? 25?

 

XXX

Im 27 with a full career ahead of me

I getting paid to go to inia

 

Vin

27. you're a kid

 

XXX

india

 

Vin

and you are wayward in your thinking.

 

XXX

Ill be a kid, all i know is that im 27 and getting international jobs

i am not wayward

 

Vin

why - cant you afford to buy yourself a ticket to india? all it takes is 1500 bucks man

 

XXX

youre just mad that an american is taking a job from you

i sure you did that to others

 

Vin

Oh, i dont do thse jobs

 

XXX

Thats 1500 bucks more I have for my vacation

 

Vin

if you get to know what i charge to do a day of sound in india, you will not say this

 

XXX

I get 800USD a day here

I own Sound Devices and Letros and i have worked hard to get where i am without any charity

 

Vin

so - why the hell cant you spend two days of pay to buy yourself a ticket to india man?

 

XXX

you have no right to tell me i am out of line

 

Vin

of course, you have worked to get your lectros

 

XXX

I came into this wanting to travel the world

and I have earned that right

 

Vin

oh yeah? i can tell you you are WAY outa line

NO NO NO

you have NOT earned ANYTHING.

you have NOT earned the right to undermine professional work either in YOUR country or MINE

 

XXX

I respect your professionalism.  And one day I will be there

but I wont make it there if I dont get to progress

 

Vin

your quest for travelling for pleasure should be met my the means that you earn by doing your job professionally and charging a professionally acceptable fee for it

 

XXX

this is called progess

progression for my career

 

Vin

good luck to you - but i can tell you one thing - this kind of shit never works out well

 

XXX

this may be pennys for this job

but the next one will be far far, whereever that is

because I am making progress in my career

 

Vin

question - will you do a gig in NYC for 300$ a day?

 

XXX

none of you old timers like to see us younger people progress

No I wont

 

 

Vin

oh fuck off. i am 44 years old, been around for long enough to see an empty bank account for long long periods of time.

so if you wont do it in your neck of the woods, you will come out here to india JUST because you get a "free ticket" and work for a pittance?

 

XXX

My bank account wont go empty because I am always going to keep making more and more progress

 

 

Vin

so you think, so you think.

but where is your ethics man?

progress is not just a bank account

 

XXX

Ethically, this is an experience of a lifetime

logically, this is good for my career

pathosely, I get to go to India

 

Vin

as per YOUR logic

 

XXX

then SE Asia

I dont look at it as you do in a negative way

I look at it as making progress in life and being able to be alive and breathing

and experience

 

Vin

anyways, i am done with you for now Sir, goodbye. If you want a GREAT boom op, please be prepared to get your production to pay him MORE than they are paying you. after all, he is only going to work in india and go back to his home. he is not thinking - like you - that he is going to traipse around another country with part expenses paid.

 

XXX

I know it is wrong for me to come there and work for less taking someones jobs

 

Vin

YOU say i am negative. obviously you will.

so then dont do it, and if you are doing it - SHUT THE FUCK UP and dont tell me that i am being negative

 

XXX

Its positive for me though

and I need this for me

so there is my logic

i need to do this for me

i will be selfish about this

because i need this for me

 

Vin

you are on one hand saying you ARE working for less and probably taking a job from an Indian sound guy. on the other hand you justify it with all kinds of skewed logic - it gives you a chance to travel, it takes care of your air ticket, etc

so then dont talk about ethics because you have no clue buddy

 

XXX

yes

i know ethics

 

Vin

just do your thing and go.

 

XXX

ethically, I should just do my thing

 

Vin

and as i said before - if you want a GOOD boom op - get your production to be prepared to pay MORE than you are getting paid.

i'm off now. i've had enough of this - it's 1.30 AM out here, i dont want to disturb my sleep tonight with thoughts about this conversation.

i'm going to listen to some chick corea and then sleep. i have things to do in the morning. it's my birthday.

g'nite or good day to you

 

XXX

You shouldnt take it personal.

Happy Birthday

 

Vin

thank you. it is not personal - believe me. i dont vie for these jobs out here anyways. but it is about the simple ethics of professional behaviour.

 

XXX

I know.  Im still building my career

i dont do these jobs here low budget narrative is not my thing

 

Vin

imho, this is not the right way. and in any case - this gig is only an excuse for you to be able to travel for pleasure at production's cost.

this is the way you put it

 

XXX

That is one thing

But I need this for ME

that is why I am doing it, I need to do this for ME

Iv only been doing sound about 3 years, Im not in a position where to as I can choose all of my jobs

 

Vin

oh yes you are

since you say you only do 800$ jobs in NY

 

XXX

I dont only do 800

I base my rates sometimes off of the content

 

Vin

so do you also do 300$ jobs there?

 

XXX

and what gear is needed

I dont do 300 jobs

I wont usually come out for less than 450 and thats barebone narrative

 

Vin

dude, you are doing a 140$ job here

 

XXX

if i get a call for a commercial i am getting that 800/day

i know

i know i am

but its more than 130/day to me

and im not talking about money wiae

this is going to look great for my career, especially being done in another country

 

Vin

a return flight from NYC to India is about 1200$ man

 

XXX

but its for me

 

Vin

that is 26$ a day for 46 days

 

XXX

its a life experience

i am not wrong for wanting to experience life

 

Vin

then dont say you are a pro

you are still an amateur

 

XXX

ill be that

but this is a step further to the professional world

 

Vin

you are getting 130$ a day for 46 days, and your air ticket would cost you 26$ out of that.

 

XXX

make it sound like you never took a bullshit job 2-3 years into your career

 

Vin

even if you did TWO days at 800$ a day, you would have 1.5 times the money for a return air ticket to india

 

XXX

my pane ticket doesnt come out of that

 

Vin

actually, i never did.

and i am quite sure of this

 

XXX

thats what you all say

Vin

 

oh of course. now you are going to shower me with disbelief

 

XXX

it didnt get to where you are in your career without having to put up with some bullshit

 

Vin

oh, you know what? i have to put up with bullshit all the time.

but NOT on my rates, the value of the work i do

 

XXX

this is just some more bullshit that comes along with the job

but the job as awesome perks

 

Vin

sorry, i dont buy that

 

XXX

have a good night.  i am done talking

 

Vin

oh, i was the one who told you i had to go

you kept on writing

so i will have the last word on this one buddy

as i said - if you want a GOOD boom op  - get prepared to pay him more than 130$ a day

especially since he is not thinking of it like you are - and he aint going to holiday after 46 days

so, let me know

goodbye

[studiomprd]

but...

it is a FEATURE...

 

 

and, BTW, what is he expecting to pay the boomer..?

 

happy birthday.

[RPSharman]

Fascinating.

I don't usually read all the way through these sorts of conversations, but it was so engaging.

I hope this guy has NO time to enjoy India, and learns that a "working vacation" is still work, and comes with the same sort of stress and responsibility as working at home. Actually more.

Your argument of "work 2 days in NY and come to India for a vacation" is so smart. It's been talked about here before, and it's 100% true.

Production is not doing this kid a favor by bringing him to India. They are taking advantage of him because he's cheaper than a professional in that country.

[Eric Toline]

Happy Birthday Vin.

[Jacob Gustavsson]

Thanks for sharing, Vin. That's a tough discussion, I'm hoping you gave this person something to think about. But above that I hope you'll have a wonderful birthday!

[Joshua Anderson]

When i was starting out, I turned down 2 out-of-country low budget movies - one in Guyana and one in Morocco. Morocco sounded very nice, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that I'd probably be doing laundry and resting on my 1 day off from work (I think they wanted to shoot 6 day weeks, of course) and wouldn't really get to see the place. A working vacation is still work and not much of a vacation. 

[old school]

HB2U Vin.

CrewC

[Alan H. Chang]

Wow, Vin.  You remember that gig I had that was going to India and needed a local mixer per my recommendation?  Well, it turned out that the budget was so low, I didn't even bother to get you nor your guys involved because it wasn't worth anybody's time, maybe except for people like the person you just encountered.

 

Lots of ppl sound just like this 27 year old person, and this coming from someone who's the same age.  That once-a-lifetime NASA gig I had back 2 years, well, it happened again this year with the working involvement of POTUS Obama mixed in (happening right NOW), BUT the bid went to the lowest service company who was willing to drop far below the rate.  Lots of frustration not just from me, but from the entire crew who worked hard in bringing that work here.

[soundtrane]

Guys, thank you for your wishes. 

 

I'm trying hard to forget this conversation...

[Marc Wielage]

That's haaaaaaarible.

 

$6000 for 46 days = $130.43 a day, which is barely $11 an hour. A McDonald's night manager makes more than that.

 

IA minimum (last time I read the Low Budget Agreement) would be more like $38/hour or $450/day plus equipment rental, and that's not too unreasonable. I have certainly done $600-$700 a day with a very light equipment load, and that's doable if the situation isn't grueling. Overseas, no bloody way. 

 

An unbelievably stupid kid. I see no upside for this except at the end, when he's glad the thing is over and realizes why to never take a gig this stupid and low-paying again.

[Rich Reilly]

do they have Subway tuna sandwich in Mumbai?

[Olle Sjostrom]

Whatever happened to caring for other people in other countries, their lives and their jobs? Incredibly selfish. And working vacation? What the hell? There's a skewed logic If any. I'd never do that rare in my own country, but I'd NEVER do it in another country, leaving family and friends and home, bringing gear and whatnot . Stupid stupid stupid

You did well Vin. Happy birthday, I guess belated. How to see your some day in India! On a true vacation.

[soundtrane]

do they have Subway tuna sandwich in Mumbai?

Ha! of course, subway exists, but not tuna i think... 

Thank you Olle, and hoping to see you in person! 

[Chris Woodcock]

Very interesting read.

The only issue I have is your assuming that anyone of the Age of 27 is a kid Vin.

I will be 28 this year. I have worked hard to get where I am. I have a lovely home and just bought a new car last week.

There is this perceived view that anyone under the age of 30 in this industry is a child. I have been offered crap rates because I am "young" but have turned them down. Luckily I have other means of earning money while I wait for the right gigs to come in.

Please don't think this guy is doing it because he is 27, he is doing it because he is a prick.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Olle Sjostrom]

Please don't think this guy is doing it because he is 27, he is doing it because he is a prick.

True. I too am around that age (29) but I've been working in the business since I was 20. This guy's been working for the years and probably haven't got the right guidance or mentorship which could lead to desperate and selfish measures like these. Which in our eyes make him a prick, and he is, but in his eyes he's helping his "career" and he well eventually realize that Vin was trying to guide this guy into thinking right. Helping him,really. He's a prick not to acknowledge that guidance.

Accepting and giving critique is one of this business's hardest parts in my opinion. And if you can't take critique at all then this business is not the one to be in. And he will realize this. After he's been burnt out after doing a feature for nothing. He can take his SE vacation to reconsider or meditate over his career.

[Chris Woodcock]

Actually maybe I was being harsh calling him that, Olle is right you are only as good as your mentoring. Still what he is doing isn't right.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[studiomprd]

marc: " barely $11 an hour. "

and minimum wage is soon to be >$10/hr

[Angelo Waldron]

I'm betting there won't be a Porta-potty on this job.

Probably should bring his own paper too.

[berniebeaudry]

Guys, thank you for your wishes. 

 

I'm trying hard to forget this conversation...

Happy Birthday Vin!

[berniebeaudry]

Fascinating.

I don't usually read all the way through these sorts of conversations, but it was so engaging.

I hope this guy has NO time to enjoy India, and learns that a "working vacation" is still work, and comes with the same sort of stress and responsibility as working at home. Actually more.

Your argument of "work 2 days in NY and come to India for a vacation" is so smart. It's been talked about here before, and it's 100% true.

Production is not doing this kid a favor by bringing him to India. They are taking advantage of him because he's cheaper than a professional in that country.

Doesn't he know its called "Location" not "Vacation".  At least that's what I always tell my wife.

[John Blankenship]

...But it's going to Sundance.

...And every one who worked on it will become immediately successful with tantalizing offers from major directors rolling in at a breakneck pace.

...And they'll pay big money to everyone on their next production.

...And they're all doing it for the love of cinema anyway and if you complain about the rate you obviously don't love cinema.

To paraphrase a Woody Allen line: The pay may be low, but at least the craft services is bad.

Happy Birthday, Vin!

[taylormadeaudio]

Hey Vin,

 

I don't think it's any coincidence this happened on your birthday.  With age comes wisdom (well, hopefully... normally...) and after reading that (as Robert pointed out) compelling "conversation" between you and the "not-so-sound-kid", it's obvious where the wisdom is.  So at least take solace in that.

It may take him years to realize his folly here.  That you tried to point him in the right direction not only speaks to your wisdom, but also your sense of friendship.  That he has basically ignored your words speaks to his lack of both.  Poor guy.

 

Anyhow, be well... enjoy the demarkation of another spin around the sun.  Happy Birthday Vin!

 

~tom

[soundtrane]

<<Please don't think this guy is doing it because he is 27, he is doing it because he is a prick.>>

 

Chris, absolutely agree. My calling him a 'kid' was at that time more of a sarcasm than a 44 year old calling a 27 year old a 'kid' just because he is young. I hope you understand. I have a 27 year old who has assisted me on two features - and now is fully authorised by me to take the entire gear out on his own to do a gig. Of course the main thing he has learned from me is not to take crap from anyone especially regarding rates and the value of our work. I hope this explains my position.  

[soundtrane]

Thanks Bernie, John, Taylor, Olle, Eric, Jacob, Crew... Be well and have a great year ahead!  

[Jacob Gustavsson]

You too, Vin! Looking forward to it!