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Red Dragon does not sync...

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Srgtfury   

Hello Dear Friends,

 

Well,
Great news!

Fury finally got RED's head engineer and Zaxcom talking directly. Glenn, from Zaxcom, who has always been , as we all know,overly helpful, for any Zaxcom related questions, has confirmed to me that RED acknowledges that the issue is in RED's reader and is being addressed. Jitter, BTW, is not a player here and Zaxcom does not send it on all rates, in any case. The problem seems to be that the transitions are, while within SMPTE specs, not close enough, for the RED reader, as it currently exists, to reliably read them. That is a reason that we see anecdotal reports, of success, as one MAXX user described, in particular. OTOH, Fury did not ask Glen if the MAXX might be sending a slightly different output, but the Nomad to Dragon problem does seem quite reproducible. The fix, for this overall problem, including other TC devices outputs, to Dragon, is what RED is going to provide, as the RED reader is simply not able to reliably read the transitions, at this point. Having said that, Zaxcom is also trying to help out and is looking at changing their output signal, to better match the current Dragon TC reader. Let's see who wins the race.

As Fury posted here and elsewhere, the 23.98 AND 24 TC's are have not been accepted, by Dragon, from Nomad or ERX, in nearly every case. Fury has been told that there has been some success, but sporadic and with sudden dropouts, with synching at 25 or> and walking down to 23.98, within the extended menu of the ERX, in particular, but Fury's attempts to do this have always failed, irrespective of voltage output settings or initial synch rate.

 

Thanking you very much

 

Fury

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Hi Fury I am glad to read this post at this time. I am about to start a movie with 2x Red Dragons and an all zax system and need to sync with my ERXTCD. The reds are coming from North America to us in New Zealand this coming Monday. Do you know if this Red timecode reader problem is fixable with software or is it a hardware problem. Would appreciate any more info you have and a contact at Red who I could deal with directly.

Thanks again for getting to the bottom of this.

Tony Johnson

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Srgtfury   

Hi Tony,

 

Fury would look at Zaxcom coming to aid first.  Howie has the matter, in sharp focus and something MAY be provided as early as this coming Monday, from Zaxcom that will obviate this vexation...

 

You should have rented Fury's Carbon Fiber Dragon, BTW;-)

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

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I have experienced this issue with both Red Epics and Dragons while attempting to use ERX2TCDs  

 

Additionally, I have seen errors on an Alexa.  Specifically, "incompatible frame rate" (while in pro res 4444 and 422 formats), and "break in timecode" (while shooting arri raw).  I've never had an issue using Denecke SB-3's on these cams.  

 

Makes me wonder how far off SMPTE the ERX's may be?

 

Most likely a combination, as mentioned above, of zaxcom and red both being slightly off the mark.  

 

I do love the concept of the ERX's though!!

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Makes me wonder how far off SMPTE the ERX's may be?

 

The ERX falls with in SMPTE TC specs, and Red doesn't. Zaxcom had a long conversation with one of Reds engineers and they are working on their software to fix this. Howy has also figured out a way for the ERX to fall within Reds TC requirements and has new ERX software coming - and with any luck that should make jamming reds less harrowing.

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Srgtfury   

The ERX falls with in SMPTE TC specs, and Red doesn't. Zaxcom had a long conversation with one of Reds engineers and they are working on their software to fix this. Howy has also figured out a way for the ERX to fall within Reds TC requirements and has new ERX software coming - and with any luck that should make jamming reds less harrowing.

Exactly what Fury said...No?

 

What Zaxcom is doing is an accommodation, for RED Dragon owners, because of a RED Dragon related issue, which has been acknowledged, for many months.  The particulars are now apparently quite well known and look for RED to produce a long term fix, whilst the Zaxcom accommodation hopefully allows a proprietary fix, as it were...

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

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Srgtfury   

Why does the ERX have trouble with Epic Dragon, and not Ambient, or Denecke boxes?

Hi Justin,

 

Fury remembers you...

 

Actually Epic Dragon does have trouble with some Ambient boxes and other devices as well. To be sure, ERX and Nomad directly are within SMPTE spec.  See post # 29 above.

 

Again, it is VERY accommodating of Zaxcom to address this, in IF'sHO.

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

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Hi Fury I am glad to read this post at this time. I am about to start a movie with 2x Red Dragons and an all zax system and need to sync with my ERXTCD. The reds are coming from North America to us in New Zealand this coming Monday. Do you know if this Red timecode reader problem is fixable with software or is it a hardware problem. Would appreciate any more info you have and a contact at Red who I could deal with directly.

Thanks again for getting to the bottom of this.

Tony Johnson

I doubt it will work. If the cameras have the IO option you might have a better luck.

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Hi Justin,

Fury remembers you...

Actually Epic Dragon does have trouble with some Ambient boxes and other devices as well. To be sure, ERX and Nomad directly are within SMPTE spec. See post # 29 above.

Again, it is VERY accommodating of Zaxcom to address this, in IF'sHO.

Thank you very much

Fury

Agreed.

I was not aware of problems regardless of TC manufacturer, I've not had an issue with jamming the Epic, in any of it's incarnations. But there you go.

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I have never had a problem jamming Red One's or Red Epic's from Denecke timecode boxes, but this is a moving target since the Epic firmware has changed many times over the last few years. I've only jammed at 23.98 and (to my knowledge) never had it fail to light up green on the camera display. 

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I've always had hit or mis luck jamming anything red related including via a Deneke. Sometimes it's works sometime it doesn't.

I don't have any ambient so I cant comment on that.

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some dragons do not sync from denecke boxes

No probs so far for me.  Ditto ambient and Mozegear.  Some days you have to work your way through the menus a few times, maybe even reboot the camera and try again, but unless there is a cable problem it has always worked.

Now, all your work can be undone if they start screwing with the settings after you've gotten it all running for sure, so you have to keep your eye on the camera dept and once in a while lean over and see if those 3 "green words" are visible in the EVF.  

 

And why so much ritual and magic is involved in doing a simple switch to external TC and sync is down to how RED sees the world, I guess.

 

philp

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For what it's worth I've never had a problem with red epic and erx2.  Have not tried the Dragon yet, and was happy to hear the show I'm on currently went with 2 Alexa's instead of the Dragon.

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Srgtfury   

For what it's worth I've never had a problem with red epic and erx2.  Have not tried the Dragon yet, and was happy to hear the show I'm on currently went with 2 Alexa's instead of the Dragon.

 

This is oddly somewhat pertinent, but Fury believes that he has posted on this Epic Vs. Dragon TC difference, reviewed below, somewhere ion this forum.

 

Several months ago, when Fury first reported this and was at RED Irvine, with a Dragon build 5.X.X, there was an EPIC X handy, with build 5.X.X.  TC , from ERX failed on both.  Fury suggested rolling back firmware, on the EPIC X  first to an earlier 5.X.X, which gave no joy at <25 FPS.  Then the 4.X.X was tried, after some research and joy, which persisted (synch 23.98 & 24), as sequential firmware was loaded on the EPIC X , up to the then current 5.X.X, that had previously failed.  Fury was rabidly salivating, that the same process would likely flash something onto the Dragon, in moments and there would be joy.  But alas, there was no joy in Mudville that day, for the Mighty Dragon had begun it's sneer with 5.X.X and 4.X.X, was but an anachronistic footnote, to Dragon .  Still, hope springs eternal, in the human breast, and anecdotal successes, with, now, many other scenarios, lifts the dark melancholy of unrealized expectations and ...sound reasoning, otherwise dashed.  

 

Let's see what Glenn and RED come up with, waddaya say?

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

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osa   

In the past with erx's and dragons it has worked when i feed the erx 23.98, the camera is set to 23.98, but i set the erx to 29.97 and sync was perfect everytime. Slate at 23.98. According to zaxcom conversation, we both were pretty confident sync was taking place at the whole second. No offical test with edit done on my part yet to prove that. And i realize too this is just a workaround for the time being until zaxcom makes their update avail. Is there something wrong w my current method? Editors havent come back to me w sync issues so far.

Ken

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Philip: " No probs so far for me.  Ditto ambient and Mozegear.  Some days you have to work your way through the menus a few times, maybe even reboot the camera and try again, but unless there is a cable problem it has always worked. "

that is an oxymoron:" if there have been no problems, then why all the menus and reboots, etc.

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Philip: " No probs so far for me.  Ditto ambient and Mozegear.  Some days you have to work your way through the menus a few times, maybe even reboot the camera and try again, but unless there is a cable problem it has always worked. "

that is an oxymoron:" if there have been no problems, then why all the menus and reboots, etc.

I mean that the system can work with those components if you are able to thread the needle of all the menus and the gremlins who live in them.  The original post of the thread states that Dragon-modded RED cameras will not sync.  I have been saying that they can and will if you put the effort in, at least with the components I used.  The effort is a drag, but it does work.  On most of my shoots, blowing off the sync issue as being a camera dept problem is not an option.

 

philp

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