metadata edit on SD recorders, still not possible?

[Fernando]

Last time I checked was in October 2007, I've been checking the firmware update notes since then, but it may have scaped to my attention.

So , it is still not possible to edit metadata after recording a file?

Any progress in any metadata related field on the 7 series recorders? (as unlinking file name and metadata, etc)

Thank you

[Matt Mayer]

Nothing new to report on that front.

You can edit the track names in the files and add notes.

---Matt

[Fernando]

Thanks for your fast response.

Sad it is not possible. Any plans about that?

Any hope or it implies a deep reestructuration of the firmware?

It is the only thing that stops me from using a 788T on location.

It is a super recorder, but I need my metadata right...

One more thing, the 744T (no idea bout the 788T) didn't stop the mirroring process automatically when going into record (you had to cancel and wait untill all data was written) Any change on this or anything related?

Thanks again

[Matt Mayer]

I believe that is an area that Sound Devices would like to address.

Whether or not it is feasable isn't something I can answer until the software guys get to work on it.

---Matt

[Fernando]

Thank you vey much again Matt,

One more thing, the 744T (no idea bout the 788T) didn't stop the mirroring process automatically when going into record (you had to cancel and wait untill all data was written)

Any change on this or anything related?

[Matt Mayer]

The 7 Series recorders don't mirror per se.  It is a user executed "Copy files" command.

Once a file has started copying, the user must wait until that file has finished copying before canceling the copy process.  The user has the opportunity to cancel the copy process at any point, but the file in process will finish copying.

Once the copy process has completed, the machine is available to record.  The time the cancel process takes is completely dependent on the size of the file in the copy cue when cancel is requested.

---Matt

[Hollandaudio]

Matt,

The 7 Series recorders don't mirror per se.  It is a user executed "Copy files" command.

Once a file has started copying, the user must wait until that file has finished copying before canceling the copy process.  The user has the opportunity to cancel the copy process at any point, but the file in process will finish copying.

Once the copy process has completed, the machine is available to record.  The time the cancel process takes is completely dependent on the size of the file in the copy cue when cancel is requested.

---Matt

  Are you sure about the mirroring portion?  I'm currently using a 744T with XL drive as a back up on a show.  I notice the drive light comes on as soon as hit record and appears to go out shortly after I hit stop.  I assume it's mirroring.  The Deva I'm using as the main recorder does something similar except I see the progress of files copied to the mirrored drives listed in percentages.

Also, I believe that initially the 744 'flags' everything to be copied unless you tell it not to.  It gives you that option as well as a destination to copy the files to.

[Jeff Wexler]

Matt,  Are you sure about the mirroring portion?  I'm currently using a 744T with XL drive as a back up on a show.  I notice the drive light comes on as soon as hit record and appears to go out shortly after I hit stop.  I assume it's mirroring.

I have had so little experience of this sort with the 7 series recorders I am hesitant to even comment, but I believe that the SD 7 recorders "record" simultaneously to any 2 storage mediums. I know that it has always recorded to the internal drive and the removable CF card, so there is no mirror process necessary --- the data exists in both places when you hit stop. Maybe the newer recorders will now record simultaneously to both the internal drive and an EXTERNAL drive, with no mirroring necessary. The mirror process that Matt refers to is in fact a COPY process that must be done on its own while the recorder is not required to do anything else.

The new Devas will record simultaneously to 2 (or maybe it is 3) storage devices or you can mirror the old way which is a copy process initiated everytime you are in STOP. With the Deva, even while mirroring, you do not have to wait to go into record --- mirror (copy) process stops and then picks up where it left off after you stop the recording.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Fernando]

The 7 Series recorders don't mirror per se.  It is a user executed "Copy files" command.

(...)

Thanks again

[Fernando]

I have had so little experience of this sort with the 7 series recorders I am hesitant to even comment, but I believe that the SD 7 recorders "record" simultaneously to any 2 storage mediums. I know that it has always recorded to the internal drive and the removable CF card, so there is no mirror process necessary --- the data exists in both places when you hit stop. (...)

Well, I think the origin of the confussion comes from the fact that, at first, the Deva did the mirroring after recording (now you can do it simult.) so, after some years we are used to call that operation mirroring, but (correct me if I'm wrong) I'd say that copying the same data simultaneously to different drives would be the "real" mirroring.

And that copying after recording, even if it's done automatically, should be just copying.

just some thoughts from my end

[wbrisett]

The new Devas will record simultaneously to 2 (or maybe it is 3) storage devices or you can mirror the old way which is a copy process initiated everytime you are in STOP.

Well, this isn't exactly correct. What happens, is with the new mirroring method, the unit records first to the hard drive, after placing that information down on the hard drive, it is mirrored to the CF card, DVD-RAM, or FireWire device. When it does this pretty much depends on how much processing is available. Sometimes it has to play "catch-up" and isn't always caught up.

I bring this up, because Zaxcom wants to ensure that nothing is ever lost, which is why putting the information down on the hard drive first is of the utmost importance and has the highest priority.

There is also a minor bug still in the software. Until you have more than one segment, the unit doesn't mirror. For most things this isn't an issue. However, for me it can be when I do music. So, for that, I do a very short dummy file that consists of a few seconds of audio, then start a new segment. That way it's always mirroring while I'm recording.

Wayne

[Philip Perkins]

It seems like the definition for the term "mirroring" was established by Zaxcom since the Deva was the first practical NL recorder.  In the biz, generally, "mirroring" means that the audio is being downloaded to a second piece of media whenever possible, probably not in real time, and in the case of the Deva 2, not while recording.  What Sound Devices is doing with its external DVDRAM drive is actually recording in more or less real time as you go, just as the recorder records to the CF card and the internal hard disk as well (744T).  In my mind that isn't really mirroring, that's just recording to multiple media.  (Some computer recording apps, like Metacorder, will also "mirror" in the Zaxcom sense given the correct drives.)

Philip Perkins

[Bob Marts]

From The 788T User Guide:

"DVD-RAM drives are essentially optical hard drives".

[Jeff Wexler]

From The 788T User Guide:

"DVD-RAM drives are essentially optical hard drives".

This is one way of looking at DVD-RAM since it is a random access read/write format (differing from another optical format, DVD-R, which typically is a write once as a session). DVD-RAM, however, has its own particular way of doing things, and there are big differences between hard drives and all the various optical disk methods.

This does not necessarily shed any light on exactly how our data ends up on multiple media with the various recorders out there we are using. Since it may all come down to semantics --- mirror, copy, simultaneous "record", backup, etc. --- what is important for us, I believe, is that we end up with viable bona fide audio (data + metadata) on every piece of media, securely where we want it and with the highest integrity and repeatability as possible.

What Wayne describes as the way the current Deva operates is correct --- but what we call that process is up for grabs (mirroring, copying, simultaneous record, etc.). A case could be made that true simultaneous recording to more than one media is better and more secure, but an equal case could be made for the advantage of a copy being made, albeit in almost real time (but not truly simultaneous) as is the way the Deva can do it presently. At the end of the day (I hate that phrase but here I mean it literally) we want to be able at wrap to turn in some piece of media that we are confident has the day's work on it, and have as well a good, identical copy on some other piece of media (and we don't want to be hanging around for any significant time after they call wrap). ALL the major machines in use can do this today ... that is a good thing. Understanding exactly how they do it is also important, in terms of our overall understanding of the tools we use.

Okay, too many words, sorry, but this is the way I see it.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[wbrisett]

This is one way of looking at DVD-RAM since it is a random access read/write format (differing from another optical format, DVD-R, which typically is a write once as a session).

I can understand why SD wrote that. In fact, take a look at the WIKI article on DVD-RAM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM

The third paragraph in particular.

Wayne

[Matt Mayer]

Wow, did this thread take off..

Just to wrap it up from my side.  Yes, the 7 Series recorders will record to all three media simultaneously, in real time.

If one media is not available at the time or recording, the user can execute a copy command that will copy sound files from one media to another.  It is a user directed process hence I wouldn't call it mirroring which I think of as an automatic process.

[andrew braswell]

Hello All,

Transitioning from a Deva 2 to a 788T and about to enter the brave new world of MetaData entry and thought this might help - as yet to be attempted personally but noted on p.53 of the 788T manual:

    Renaming Files/Folders

          Files and folder names can be edited after recording has taken place.  To rename a file or folder:

              1. Enter the File Viewer by pressing the HDD key.

              2. Highlight the desired file or folder.

              3. Select OPTIONS using the Fast Forward key.

              4. Select Rename.

              5. Rename the file/folder and press the check mark soft key to save the new file name.

As soon as I build my iso fan out cable for the Cooper 106 direct outs, add a USB Keyboard shelf to my cart and plow through the manual for this powerful new recorder then I can catch up to the multitrackers

Andrew Braswell

[Philip Perkins]

Hello All,

Transitioning from a Deva 2 to a 788T and about to enter the brave new world of MetaData entry and thought this might help - as yet to be attempted personally but noted on p.53 of the 788T manual:

    Renaming Files/Folders

          Files and folder names can be edited after recording has taken place.  To rename a file or folder:

              1. Enter the File Viewer by pressing the HDD key.

              2. Highlight the desired file or folder.

              3. Select OPTIONS using the Fast Forward key.

              4. Select Rename.

              5. Rename the file/folder and press the check mark soft key to save the new file name.

As soon as I build my iso fan out cable for the Cooper 106 direct outs, add a USB Keyboard shelf to my cart and plow through the manual for this powerful new recorder then I can catch up to the multitrackers

Andrew Braswell

Note that with this system you are editing the filenames on the HDD only, not the metadata.  The metadata can only be changed via a computer. 

Philip Perkins

[Fernando]

Andrew, thank you, but as Philip noted you change file name only, not metadata. Even if you are using the naming convention by wich the file is named with Scene and Take, metadata will not change, that is the problem.

Time has shown (to me at least) that the most useful is to have a unique id for the file's name (as roll-or-folder_filenumber.wav versus scene_take.wav) and be able to correct metadata in the field (we don't have the time to transfer files to a computer and edit metadata and then burn the daylies disc...!)

The problem is, I guess, how to implement this while still keeping files safe

[Philip Perkins]

We use an SD recorder quite a lot, on pretty fast moving work with a lot of changes as to what to call what we are shooting, not to mention what we've shot already.  The non-correctibility of the metadata (and the complete lack of time in which to do this work) have lead us to use the recorder's scene/take function as a simple ascending file number that is correlated with the scene/take numbers on a written report.  This is not a very hip way to go anymore, but we figure that bad computer generated data is a lot worse than handwritten data that is correct, at least for our little jobs, which often have hundreds of tiny little takes.  We have used a computer to correct metadata (BWF Widget), but on the work we've been doing lately it is all we can do to get a correct report done and the DVDs burned before all the trucks leave location at wrap.

Philip Perkins