Bruce Watson Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 It looks like the new Aaton Cantar X3 is going to support AES42 mode 2. IOW, it should let us control at least some mic parameters from the mixer. That's nice, but at 15,000 euros, I'd have to sell my car to get one. Wait... make that both cars. And... a camera. Sigh... not likely going to happen in my case. Are there any other mixers / recorders / whatever out there that support AES42 mode 2 inputs? Not mode 1, but mode 2. I know the SD stuff supports only mode 1, and from what I can tell so does Zaxcom. Any idea when the "usual suspects" will support mode 2? And yes, I know I'm rumor mongering, but the AES42 standard was last updated in 2010! I thought for sure we see some offerings on the mixer side by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 we may not be a major target market for this functionality at this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 There are some mixers, but they are not exactly "field". With the various AES42 mics I can think of, exactly which parameters would you like to control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Watson Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 we may not be a major target market for this functionality at this time... That depends. Seriously, you can't see any AES42 benefits for dialog? If nothing else, it should result in cheaper, lighter field mixers which make working in the bag easier, and it should raise audio quality somewhat because the conversion to digital takes place before all the long cable runs and all the connectors, and because the mic pres and A>D converters are tailored to the specific mic in question. I would think that the dialog crowd would be interested in anything that makes noise pickup less likely. Then there's the drop in the noise floor. I just sayin' that I think there are at least some advantages to AES42 for dialog. What I can't say is whether the advantages of AES42 will be worth the effort. If all we get is mode 1, I don't think it will be. If we get mode 2, perhaps it will be. But we won't know until it gets some field time, and right now that's not happening because there aren't any mixers (at least any that I know of) that support AES42 mode 2. Which brings me back full circle to my original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Watson Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 There are some mixers, but they are not exactly "field". With the various AES42 mics I can think of, exactly which parameters would you like to control? I don't think that AES42 will meet with any great acceptance unless it at least maintains what we can do at the mixer in the analog world today. That is, we can set limiters, high pass filters, sample rates, that kind of thing. AES42 mode 2 lets us control the mics from the mixer. AES42 mode 1 means you have to go to the mic to control the mic. And adding steps and confusion on set isn't going to fly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 It's not a mixer but the Neumann DMI-2 portable is shaped to fit in a bag and will talk AES mode 2:https://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_accessories&cid=db_current_accessories&dbid=193 I believe it's just the neumann and sennheiser mics which will talk in mode 2, schoeps only work on mode 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I don't think that AES42 will meet with any great acceptance unless it at least maintains what we can do at the mixer in the analog world today. That is, we can set limiters, high pass filters, sample rates, that kind of thing. AES42 mode 2 lets us control the mics from the mixer. AES42 mode 1 means you have to go to the mic to control the mic. And adding steps and confusion on set isn't going to fly... Along this line: I will seriously think about going AES42 no sooner than when a wireless boom workflow with full control from cart/bag mixer is possible - like we have today using analog mics and Zaxnet. I don't want another "digital mic interface" box adding to failure risk. The mixer/recorder or wireless receiver needs to talk to the mic directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Watson Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Along this line: I will seriously think about going AES42 no sooner than when a wireless boom workflow with full control from cart/bag mixer is possible - like we have today using analog mics and Zaxnet. I don't want another "digital mic interface" box adding to failure risk. The mixer/recorder or wireless receiver needs to talk to the mic directly. Yes! That's what I'm talking about! The standard is there, but there doesn't seem to be an implementation of it. Thus my frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Watson Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 It's not a mixer but the Neumann DMI-2 portable is shaped to fit in a bag and will talk AES mode 2: https://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_accessories&cid=db_current_accessories&dbid=193 I believe it's just the neumann and sennheiser mics which will talk in mode 2, schoeps only work on mode 1 I know about this interface box. The other most often mentioned is the RME DMC-842, but it's big (8 channels) and quite expensive for what it does IMHO, and it's not exactly bag-able. As to mics, there are some Neumann mics that support mode 2 also, such as the KMR 81D which is the AME42 mode 2 version of the venerable KMR 81i shotgun. Schoeps had a digital version of the Colette series CMC6, the CMD 2u, but it was a mode 1 interface that's now been discontinued. Bernhard Vollmer of Schoeps emailed me telling me that Schoeps does plan a mode 2 version of the CMD for the Colette series, but that it's not a high priority and that all the developers are working on other things right now. IOW, I shouldn't hold my breath. Sennheiser has the MXD 8000 module which should make any of the 8xxx mics AES42 mode 2-ish (not full functionality as far as I can tell). It adds another $900 USD or so, but it can handle two mics, like a stereo pair. I've thought about this with a pair of MKH 8040s in ORTF for some music, but it would require the Neumann DMI-2P on the other end, which makes it cost $1900 USD extra to go digital. Umm.... no. I can't jump that high. Really, it's the Neumann KMR 81D that sparked my interest and got me to start this thread. Because I can't see how I'm supposed to use it. The only way to use it seems to be with the DMI-2P, which costs another $1000 and takes up more space in the bag. This is more of a penalty than I'm willing to pay, which in turn is why I was looking for mixers with mode 2 built in. But I've found next to nothing there. So we have some mics, but not mixers. Which makes the mics... curiosities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I totally get everything you say about using AES42 mics, and I fully agree with all the advantages you list for using one. However, most of them don't require a mode 2. Most parameters that I can control with mode 2, are those which I don't need to change often, like sample rate, limiter setting and so on. I can do that at home before the gig starts. Right now the analog mics sometimes have switches on them which need to be switched and I'm perfectly happy to do that, or ask my boom-op to do it. Contrary to you I think that AES42 is here and can be used now. And the more of us do, the more the developers will notice and respond. Btw, Peter, the 742 does AES42, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJW Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 It looks like the new Aaton Cantar X3 is going to support AES42 mode 2. IOW, it should let us control at least some mic parameters from the mixer. That's nice, but at 15,000 euros, I'd have to sell my car to get one. Wait... make that both cars. And... a camera. Sigh... not likely going to happen in my case. Well perhaps you pay for what you get? At €15k a Cantar X3 will come out a lot less than a Sonosax STDR mixer so you can choose your comparisons - a car or a mixer. I am pleased that the X3 has AES42 mode 2 as it will cater for future mics. The problem with digital mics is that they are competing with some very good analogue ones: I have a pair of CMITs and CCM41s and they do almost all of what I record faultlessly. I recently tried the DPA 4017c and that was a very useful mic: amazing side rejection for a 15cm microphone and sounded good alongside the Schoeps. Another great piece of analogue technology. I stood in for an evening on a TV shoot and the mixer (Bash) had a couple of KMR 81Ds that he ran through a DMI-2 interface. They worked well and sounded sweet but I am not sure if I would jump for them unless I could hear a clear advantage and my recorder could work with them effortlessly - so that will be after my X3 is delivered, I suppose. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 As long as you use digital mics cabled, they are immune to rfi from neighbouring power cables. That can be a clear advantage on some sets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 As long as you use digital mics cabled, they are immune to rfi from neighbouring power cables. That can be a clear advantage on some sets This certainly is great for live TV shows, stadium sports events, and similar, where lots of RFI sources are close. I don't see so much of an advantage in location sound. Most booms are wireless today anyway, and this wireless system often is digital (Zax) or hybrid (Lectro). Yes, there is a theoretical advantage in having the limiter and lo-cut in the mic instead of the TX. But in practice - well, if it ain't broken, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 This certainly is great for live TV shows, stadium sports events, and similar, where lots of RFI sources are close. I've had a few studio shoots where I could hardly get a cabled mic cable to the set because of so many power cables. Always required extra work. That's EMI, but digital mics work better there, too. I try to go cabled wherever possible and I do see the advantages of AES42, but I still wonder about mode 2... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Might Mode 2 allow you to remotely control the parameters of a Schoeps Super CMIT or would it have to be an updated version of the mic? It would be very convenient if it did. I'll email Schoeps to ask as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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