dominiquegreffard Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 A bmc owner sent me this today: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 It's too bad the BMCC 4K doesn't have an SDI input, it would be one of the cheaper 4K recorders out there to attach to another camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Ya, Blackmagic released Blackmagic Camera Utility 1.9. These features: Blackmagic Production Camera 4K Add histogram, time remaining and audio level indicators Blackmagic Cinema Camera No changes Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera No changes Blackmagic Studio Camera No changes A video detailing the changes (I think) and links to the Mac and Windows version of the update can be found here: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support Presumably/hopefully these features will be added to their other cameras soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Mitchell Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Why the hell can't camera makers include a market at -20? No one uses -12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Why the hell can't camera makers include a market at -20? No one uses -12. -12dbfs has been and is still used as a reference point to compensate for poorer record electronics. It was the test reference level for the published specs for the HHb Portadat of years past. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Why the hell can't camera makers include a market at -20? No one uses -12. Feed the camera tone at -12. EASY. Or if you really need -20: Feed the camera tone at -12..Align to the -12 mark. Now reduce the tone level to -20. Here is your -20 mark. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 AM: " No one uses -12. " based on ..? obviously not true, as you have noted, some camcorders and other toys use it... and the utility of tone is greatly diminished in the digital world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigF Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 and the utility of tone is greatly diminished in the digital world. use of has need for has not, I can't count the number of times I've been "called" when a mix handed back to picture for marring and output to tape was tone hot. Ever time they did not bother to check their output assingments/panning so it was summing mono/hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Finally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted July 26, 2014 Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 Why the hell can't camera makers include a market at -20? No one uses -12. What Rado said. Just feed tone at -12dBFS for alignment on the -12dB mark in the camera. Just remember that if you record some of the tone down (which you probably should), that you write it somewhere and let post know so that there isn't any issues down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 ok ok, the whole -20 -12 debate. Rado had a very simple solution to the "problem", and the Senator wasn't helpful as usual. -12 may have BEEN a normal thing for many years, in years past, but -20 is certainly "more normal" these days, so I would too be a little surprised to see -12, if I hadn't also seen plenty of other odd markers in camera audio levels (-18, -15, -14, etc) all in dBFS. For someone who is used to seeing -20, this would be a surprise, so keep that context in your mind before you judge someone for reacting guys And just to make a simple point about being over reliant on metering: On a recent job, I and another team were told to mix to camera, which was our beloved BMC 4K with its distinguished 1/4" TRS inputs and no metering. The purpose was to have the mix already married to the picture because as soon as it was shot, the picture would be handed off to post where it would be edited down and rendered out, and within less than an hour, be presented to a huge live audience and broadcast simultaneously. Our common sense solution was to play audio at full gain on the camera and then level it down to where it sounded right and was no longer clipping. Needless to say we had zero issues, no audio was needed to be resynced, our mixes were adequate for their purpose, and everyone was happy. In a high pressure run and gun situation with little to no prep time and little direction from production, this went rather smooth and our high end clients were happy. The camera operators on the other hand strongly detested using this specific camera for that style of shooting, and had very few good things to say about their performance, so you guys can take that one to the bank if you like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattinSTL Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Jon, do you mean you sent the camera full-scale tone to set levels in cam? (I assume this is what you mean)... and then aim for average peaks on your mixer of around +8ish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 STL: " do you mean you sent the camera full-scale tone to set levels in cam? (I assume this is what you mean). " tone was probably irrelevant in this case, and assuming is rarely a great option... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I played some average level dialogue from a previous recording, and made sure the camera gain was at maximum. Then stepped it down until it seemed appropriate. I know a lot of people will have trouble without the crutch of a guideline or marker, but this was a simple solution that the other sound mixer and myself came up with, and it worked very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Sharp Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Hey guys, I am a bit of a newbie to production sound but I am always trying to learn, so please be patient if I am asking dumb questions. I have never had many problems calibrating mixes to other cameras but it seems the Black Magic production cam is a bit more complicated. Rado mentioned above that in order to match levels on the BM camera, simply change your output tone to -12dbfs and match it up on the camera using the cam's preamps. This is what I did, but I then noticed that my near 0dBfs peaks were hitting quite low on the cam meters (I can't remember exactly where but somewhere around maybe -6dBfs). I then attempted to send another reference tone output @-6dBfs to see if it was matching on the BM meters, but to my surprise, the meters were not aligned at -6. Instead they were much lower. I am wondering if this has something to do with internal settings of bit depth on the black magic or if I am maybe doing something else wrong. After all, if I can't align a healthy signal in the camera, something is not optimally configured. Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Sounds like AGC might have been turned on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Sharp Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Sounds like AGC might have been turned on. I don't believe these cameras have AGC. I kind of felt like there was some other logarithmic magic going on that I don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't believe these cameras have AGC. Well, that makes me wrong, but also makes me happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Sharp Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Feed the camera tone at -12. EASY. Or if you really need -20: Feed the camera tone at -12..Align to the -12 mark. Now reduce the tone level to -20. Here is your -20 mark. . Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. I am supposed to work with this camera on a regular basis with the same company, and it would be great if I could figure this out before tomorrow when I will need to use it again. Rado, do you have anything to offer more than what you have already said? When I send -12 tone to the BM and line it up to -12 on the meters everything is fine, but then when I turn my tone knob to -6 it does not correspond to -6 on the camera's meter. Instead it is somewhere more like -10. The point being, when I align everything up, the reference tone when changed does not follow the same kind of change on cam meter. It is like we are dealing with two metrics of dBFS. My mixer's meters and the cam meters seem to measure increments of decibels completely differently. This is so frustrating because I tried so many times and I don't know what to do next. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 ... This is so frustrating because I tried so many times and I don't know what to do next. Thanks in advance. Forgive my directness, but it's time to learn gain staging and to quit trying to just paint by numbers. What is the max level before distortion of each stage that your sound signal will travel through? How much headroom do you wish each stage to have? Your signal will only be as good as the weakest link of the audio chain it's traveling through. A starting point (back to the numbers) is to increase a reference signal until a given stage hits its "brick wall," and then decrease the nominal level by 20dB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Sharp Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Forgive my directness, but it's time to learn gain staging and to quit trying to just paint by numbers. What is the max level before distortion of each stage that your sound signal will travel through? How much headroom do you wish each stage to have? Your signal will only be as good as the weakest link of the audio chain it's traveling through. A starting point (back to the numbers) is to increase a reference signal until a given stage hits its "brick wall," and then decrease the nominal level by 20dB. Again, please excuse my ignorance, but how would I do this differently? Would I send reference tone of 0dB, line it up to the 0dB mark on the camera meter by adjusting the camera's preamp, and then decrease the reference tone on my mixer by 20dB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 In Google search, type "audio gain staging" You will find some references that can help you start to learn what you're dealing with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Sharp Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Again, please excuse my ignorance, but how would I do this differently? Would I send reference tone of 0dB, line it up to the 0dB mark on the camera meter by adjusting the camera's preamp, and then decrease the reference tone on my mixer by 20dB? But was I correct with my method I explained in my last comment?! Or is this wrong?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 But was I correct with my method I explained in my last comment?! Or is this wrong?? I don't know this version of that camera (most cams these days are a moving target) but I know how to set gain which starts with understanding gain structure. I outlined a basic methodology in an earlier post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBerto Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Find the spot on the BM where clipping happens and then back off enough to give yourself the headroom you want. If you're going to be working with the camera a lot, get your hands on it for a test. There should be an hour at the beginning of the day after you're all set up and before camera is ready to roll to do a couple of tests. Use your ears, and only check the meters as dummy check to confirm what you hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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