Sloan Stewart Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm a live sound engineer accustomed to doing large concerts for national acts but I'm looking to get into some location sound as I've always had an interest in film even before I got into music so long ago. With that said I am most interested in documentary and will be looking for work around the Nashville and Atlanta areas. I am aware that most of my skills and equipment will not be useful in location sound so I'm here for advice on getting started putting a versatile kit together and snagging some work. Workflow What is an average day in the field like? What is expected of the sound guy past a positive attitude and capturing good tracks? Is it common for you to do some post work before submitting your files? Gear *** I do not want this topic to devolve I into a cork sniffing gear battle so keep specific brands etc out of this thread, just PM me if you need to mention something specific*** What are the average amount of tracks needed for most jobs? Is it smarter to invest in gear to mix down to a camera or to capture separate recordings (in my mind having dedicated multiple tracks is best)? Other What is the typical way to get paid doing low budget work? Any pitfalls to look out for as a beginner? Where to find work other than craigslist etc? For those interested, some of my own personal video junk can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/sloanstewart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 From your questions you seem to be very inexperienced in video audio, which you acknowledge. I would strongly suggest that instead of looking for work in this field right away you do some little research and then some "job shadowing"--following and maybe helping a location sound professional on some jobs so you can discover what questions you really need answered. Find out who is doing the work you are interested in in your area and get in touch with them. You probably started in live sound the same way... philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I made a similar thread on reddit and a user suggested starting as a production assistant to get a feel for what goes down on set, would you agree this would be something to look into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 1-Read the material on this site for as long as you can stand it.... 2- Get some books and read them.... This site has many recommended.... Find them and read them.... 3- After reading this, don't come back to this post unless you have thick skin...LOL... It may get rough... 4- Phillip's advice is good advice.... Tuck in under someone's wing.. 5- Break out your checkbook AND credit cards... Best of luck...happy reading... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 1-Read the material on this site for as long as you can stand it.... 2- Get some books and read them.... This site has many recommended.... Find them and read them.... 3- After reading this, don't come back to this post unless you have thick skin...LOL... It may get rough... 4- Phillip's advice is good advice.... Tuck in under someone's wing.. 5- Break out your checkbook AND credit cards... Best of luck...happy reading... FWIW, I agree . Also if you can do Live music you can learn sound for picture. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 "1 Read the material on this site for as long as you can stand it..." This made me laugh. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 What is an average day in the field like? Cool question, and probably one of the reasons I love my job so much is that there really isn't an average day in our field. Everyday is a different office, a different challenge, different people and personalities... The last gig I had was a cooking segment at a waterside mansion in paradise, the next gig I'm doing will be a travel segment where we are swimming with whales... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Cool question, and probably one of the reasons I love my job so much is that there really isn't an average day in our field. Everyday is a different office, a different challenge, different people and personalities... The last gig I had was a cooking segment at a waterside mansion in paradise, the next gig I'm doing will be a travel segment where we are swimming with whales... Yeah that's why I dig audio work for the most part. I should have worded this question differently, but I'm interested in a day as far as workflow is concerned. From my limited experience, one would show up, setup gear, get all the tracks you need, submit tracks and you're done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) welcome Sloan... AFMY: " 2- Get some books and read them.... This site has many recommended.... Find them and read them.... " I have just received the excellent new fourth edition of Jay Rose's excellent book Producing Great Sound for Film and Video (www.dplay.com) and also suggest Rick Viers' Location Sound Bible at www.mwp.com you would have seen those suggestions had you taken some time to do some reading here... SS: " What is expected of the sound guy past a positive attitude and capturing good tracks? " plenty... and: it takes years of experience to get years of experience. and perhaps you could look into Blair Halver's lessons http://realitysoundschool.com/make-6-figures-in-audio/... Edited August 1, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 "From my limited experience, one would show up, setup gear, get all the tracks you need, submit tracks and you're done? " Exactly.... It's just that simple.... each and every day... So, go buy some gear and off you go.... It's really easy... anyone can do it... just check craigslist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 "From my limited experience, one would show up, setup gear, get all the tracks you need, submit tracks and you're done? " Exactly.... It's just that simple.... each and every day... So, go buy some gear and off you go.... It's really easy... anyone can do it... just check craigslist... Obviously that's a bit simplified, but that's why I'm here - to learn more. I'm just getting out of a month long out of town gig and I'll have some extra cash to throw around so I figured I need another money pit - location sound looked fun and aligns with my interests for the most part. I will actually probably buy some gear and just do some small shit work nearby, what better way to learn than via fucking up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Dear Sloan: I'm a location sound engineer accustomed to doing production sound for national and international movies and television shows but I'm looking to get into some live concert sound for big name acts as I've always had an interest in music even before I got into movies so long ago: I'm asking you for advice on getting started putting a versatile kit together and snagging some work.Workflow What is an average live concert gig like? What is expected of the sound guy past a positive attitude and mixing good sound? Is it common for you to do some work before, or after mixing the show?Gear *** I do not want this topic to devolve I into a cork sniffing gear battle so keep specific brands etc out of this and just PM me if you need to mention something specific*** What are the average amount of inputs and monitors needed for most jobs? Is it smarter to invest in gear to mix monitors on Aux sends, or to split inputs to separate monitor mixer systems (in my mind the latter is best)? Other What is the typical way to get paid doing these gigs? Any pitfalls to look out for as a beginner? Where to find work other than craigslist etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Dear Sloan: I'm a location sound engineer accustomed to doing production sound for national and international movies and television shows but I'm looking to get into some live concert sound for big name acts as I've always had an interest in music even before I got into movies so long ago: I'm asking you for advice on getting started putting a versatile kit together and snagging some work. Workflow What is an average live concert gig like? At the start of an average day I'll get there before load in and go over my gear and setting things up according to advance information, stage plots etc. Advance info may be vague or nonexistent, so I'll try to get the production manager in touch with the artists to confirm info etc. When artist arrives for load-in, all gear is loaded into venue and setup. Generally the artists' crew if they have a crew can handle this. At this time I'll double check with artist to ensure everyone is on the same page and they have what they need etc. I specialize in monitors, so I am working with FOH to ensure we are on the same page regarding inputs and routing etc for each act. If we are broadcasting to tv or radio, we also coordinate with them. Once backline and audio is setup, we begin either a line check or a soundcheck. This involves testing and checking every input to ensure it sounds appropriate in he house, monitor mixes, and broadcast if needed. This takes a good amount of time. Once everyone is happy, we move to the next act and so on. By the time soundchecks are done, it is generally almost time to open doors. Sometimes we have time to get lunch or dinner, but that's rare. Doors open, we might be busy tying up loose ends or what have you, but mostly just hanging tight until show time. Show time, band comes out, crowd goes wild, this is where you try to minimize fuck ups as much as possible. Monitors can be quite hectic at this time, it's all about paying attention and communicating with the artists. Everyone has a different way to communicate what they need and hopefully I've caught on during soundcheck. I give the artists what they want in their wedges or ears and try to keep up with any other problems that might occur. Cables might be knocked loose or a mic stand droops, i might have to run on stage and correct things like that. Plenty of opportunities for chaos. After the first act, we strike their gear, I repatch the split if necessary, and then run the next set and so on. After the show, we tear everything down, put it where it belongs and load it back up. There may be additional things to attend to post show, but generally we are done when the artist is ready to go. What is expected of the sound guy past a positive attitude and mixing good sound? Communication and everyone being on the same page is very important and crucial to achieving a common goal (ie: the show). Shit gets busted all the time so it's extremely helpful to be able to repair equipment. Is it common for you to do some work before, or after mixing the show? Yes, for example, having time to tune your system before the artist arrives will save time. After you may have to break down a stage or clean it up or whatever, this is kind of dependent on the job. Gear *** I do not want this topic to devolve I into a cork sniffing gear battle so keep specific brands etc out of this and just PM me if you need to mention something specific*** What are the average amount of inputs and monitors needed for most jobs? I would not go for less than 32 inputs and 8 mix busses. Is it smarter to invest in gear to mix monitors on Aux sends, or to split inputs to separate monitor mixer systems (in my mind the latter is best)? If you are a one man operation, then most modern digital consoles are fairly simple to run aux mixes with sends on faders etc. Having a split and a separate console is the way to go for a crew. Other What is the typical way to get paid doing these gigs? Generally If I'm working through a production company, I'm on a payroll and they mail me a check. Sometimes on freelance gigs, I'll get paid cash or personal check. Other jobs, I get direct deposit. Any pitfalls to look out for as a beginner? Attitude is a big part, just because everyone is an asshole, doesn't mean you have to be. You will get yelled at, you will get blamed, but no big deal just do your job. Where to find work other than craigslist etc? Most of the good work I get is through people I know. You want to be high in their contacts so when they can't make a gig, they pass it off to you. Getting in touch with production companies can lead to some work. I've even gotten work from pro sound forums and other internet groups. Craigslist can be good for filler gigs. Any info on how a typical location gig would differ is appreciated. If you would like to know more, please feel free to ask, I may have left out some info since I'm working on an ipad here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 "I will actually probably buy some gear and just do some small shit work nearby, what better way to learn than via fucking up?" I can think of about 1000 other ways to learn without "fucking up" on a job where you were hired to perform professionally. I don't think any of us would feel very good about doing a shit job even if the job were a shit job... but hey, that's just me. You should do whatever you think is the best path to take in your new career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 SS: " Any info on how a typical location gig would differ is appreciated " " "I will actually probably buy some gear and just do some small shit work nearby, what better way to learn than via fucking up?" " based on that, I guess you are good to go... concert sound looks fun and aligns with my interests for the most part... If that is OK, then I'd like to do Paul when he plays Dodger Stadium... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 ... The first thing to learn is that the uninformed, laissez a faire attitude that you've demonstrated thus far toward the art, craft, and science of location sound is insulting to serous professionals. You said you wanted to learn by screwing up? You're well on your way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm interested in a day as far as workflow is concerned. From my limited experience, one would show up, setup gear, get all the tracks you need, submit tracks and you're done? My answer would be much the same... Everyday is different. I might have a job requiring a multi track recorder, 6 talent, timecode to multiple cameras, or it might be a relatively easy day, one talking head on a green screen, direct to camera... With the jobs I do (smaller TV shows), my gear is basically already set up before I get to a job. You ask all the right questions before hand and show up pretty much all ready to go. I usually touch base with the camera operator, help them load gear in, help them setup lights, rig their camera with a link or jam TC if needed, send tone and check levels on camera, touch base with the director/field producer, rig talent with a wireless mic if needed (which sometimes is the trickiest part of the day), deal with noise issues (fridges, AC, open windows etc), scan frequencies and make sure all my existing frequencies will work for the day etc etc. As far as "submitting tracks", sometimes you'll be handed a CF card, format the card, set up your recorder for the day to the specs of post on your call sheet and hand it off at the end of the day, or you'll be recording direct to camera... Obviously everything I've written is extremely simplified too. eg Mic'ing up talent; identify what they are wearing, colour match lav, choose appropriate transmitter, check audio settings on Tx, identify appropriate way to hide lav, intrude greatly into their personal space without making them feel awkward (sometimes you mic up someone who's done it a million times, sometimes it's their first time), figure out best place to hide Tx (pocket, belt, waist strap, ankle strap, bra strap), For each seemingly simple part of my day, there are a lot of mental checklists and "gotchas!" That I run through after having a few years under my belt... So as you can see, it's very hard to simplify and explain a "normal" day as far as workflow goes. And this is just my own personal workflow, others may do things completely differently to myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I will actually probably buy some gear and just do some small shit work nearby, what better way to learn than via fucking up? Acknowledging that you'll make mistakes is good. But planning to make mistakes is not. A big part of our job is figuring out what mistakes are possible in any situation and then figuring out how to avoid them. Then when a mistake does occur (either because of our or someone else's error) fixing that mistake as quickly as possible and without delaying or screwing up production. The sets of mistakes and specific solutions for location sound frequently differ from those for live sound. Duh, and I'll guess you were just writing something in jest, but the different perspective is important. However, one of my favorite aphorisms is: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. Also, I see that you're a couple hours (more or less) from both Nashville and Atlanta. Take advantage of your fortuitous location and become friendly with the people at the solid location-audio dealers in those towns. There may be others, but I know of: Nashville Trew Audio http://www.trewaudio.com/hours/ Atlanta Gotham Sound https://www.gothamsound.com/news/tags/atlanta Trew Audio http://www.trewaudio.com/audioflow/trew-audio-atlanta-open-house/ I've had positive experiences with both of those dealers, though over the phone and web rather than in person. Seems like good ways to get your hands on (and rent and then buy) location equipment and to do some good networking. Locals will know of other places to suggest. Also these two threads are worth reading, though most of this stuff shouldn't be too far from your live-sound experiences: Social skill of the sound mixer Actor throws tantrum and destroys my transmitter and lav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Thanks JDirckze and Jim for the helpful replies and info. I'm definitely looking to do some projects in the nashville and Atlanta area when I feel ready to tackle them and I've been chatting up some local production friends. Jim, I did read through some of those threads last night and you are spot on with the live sound parallels, very familiar territory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 SS: " one would show up, setup gear, get all the tracks you need, submit tracks and you're done? " yep, just like all those big shows you do... only different! JD: " touch base with the camera operator, help them load gear in, help them setup lights,... , " beware: helping the camera crew, except with audio connections and TC connections or jamming may not fly in many circumstances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 JD: " touch base with the camera operator, help them load gear in, help them setup lights,... , " beware: helping the camera crew, except with audio connections and TC connections or jamming may not fly in many circumstances... Yes very true... Which is why I prefaced that statement with "The jobs I do (smaller TV shows)". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjafreddan Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 I'm a live sound engineer accustomed to doing large concerts for national acts but I'm looking to get into some location sound as I've always had an interest in film even before I got into music so long ago. With that said I am most interested in documentary and will be looking for work around the Nashville and Atlanta areas.Hi Sloan For me, the most important thing filming documentaries is to capture the dialogue as clean as possible, and try not to interfere with the natural flow of a recording situation. That means swinging boom when two people meet, get their natural reactions greeting each other, and when they have done that and the camera man wants to position them for a better picture, I quickly hide a lav mic on the new person. So always think about what you're filming first, and technical stuff second. On some occasions you will not get the perfect sound but instead you will get raw and natural human reactions and they have a tendency to survive in the editing because they are interesting to see. But you will bash yourself for chickening out and not positioning the boom at the proper position and the next time you do it better. So when are you suppose to mic people? Depends entirely on the situation. It takes years of experience to grow a form of sixth sense of what might happen in a situation, what the usual pitfalls are etcetera. In documentaries the really interesting stuff have a tendency to happen off camera, when people forget that they are being filmed and you have to be prepared for it. That means always carrying the sound bag on your stomach and consider the boom your third arm. Regarding equipment, travel light by building a good sound bag with a comfy back strap, a couple of wireless systems, at least one wireless in-ear for the director/reporter, rechargeable batteries, a curled snake cable to hook up with the camera, a good boom with built-in cable, a good shotgun mic and a pair of headphones that you are comfortable to work with. As a location sound engineer you are constantly upgrading your gear to make your work easier and better. The more jobs you do the more you learn what to expect from you and what you want to achieve. I think you should start out with a stereo mixer, Sound Devices 552 or such, and send a stereo feed to the camera. But if you have the money, then buying a mixer/recorder like the Sound Devices 633 or 664 or such, will make you more flexible and you will be able to take more advanced jobs. If you go for a multi-channel recorder you need to read up on SMPTE and the different sync boxes available, because the production team will most likely rely on you bringing the proper gear to synchronize the recorder with the cameras. You don't want to get a call from the post production team saying that the audio is out of sync. The reason a documentary team bring you along is to ensure that they end up with good dialogue. There will be times when they expect the sound to be great just because there's a sound engineer present, even when the chosen location severely compromises the sound quality - standing next to a highway, construction area, waterfall, inside a silo etc. In those cases you do what can be done, suggest moving the location a bit to make the sound better, hunt down possible soft sync sounds that's not appropriate for the recording - someone slamming with a hammer, heavy laughter from the table next to you etc. There's loads of technical and creative pitfalls when filming a documentary and the only way for you to learn is to do the mistakes, learn from them and do a better job next time. Also, you need to learn how the camera man is cutting the pictures, if possible look at the screen on the camera whenever you can, otherwise just ask how close you can position the shotgun mic. Learn the different picture compositions used, the more people in the picture the most space is shown above their heads etc. You really need to team up with the camera man as fast as possible, because it's you and him/her that capture the content of a recording situation. Do that by being helpful whenever you can and the courtesy will be mutual. It's a good thing to do post on your first couple of recordings, that will teach you a lot! And next time you will do a better ENG job. I'd say there's three simple rules for docs: 1. Capture as clean dialogue as possible and make sure it's recorded on the camera. 2. Team up with the camera man - make his job easier and he will make your job easier. 3. Try not to interfere with the natural flow of a situation. I wish you the best of luck Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 another good book to acquire: http://www.tyford.com/Ty_Ford_Audio_Bootcamp_Field_Guide.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloan Stewart Posted August 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 another good book to acquire: http://www.tyford.com/Ty_Ford_Audio_Bootcamp_Field_Guide.html Thanks for the recommendations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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