entering metadata on the fly

[phenix]

Documentary production wants each audio .wav file to identify the subject and location.  does not want the day/ month / year provided by sound devices .

 

Director wants sound to be rolling all the time (whether or not cameras are rolling), and more than 50% 0f time does not provide information to sound dept re: name of person or subject of scene.

 

Sound mixer is working backstage  in the dark (literally) following camera operators through crowds of people, with boom reaching over the camera to unseen subjects interviewed on the fly, or to various personalities talking to each other in the crowd.

 

After a day of non-stop event recording with some information given after the fact during cab rides between locations, producer asks for CF cards to download and send off to editors.

 

Any suggestions on how to satisfy the requirement, in this type of circumstance, with no lead time between "let's shoot this!" and  "rolling?", no chance to call a temporary halt to the madness while entering metadata into the recorder before rolling.

 

On a sound cart scripted (or even unscripted) project, this would be a piece of cake.  But it is a week of crowds, over-the-shoulder work, a bit of a trick to coax the sound into the microphone.

 

.Wav file names can be changed after the fact, but we are reluctant to edit sound file metadata on the fly after the files have been created.  We have supplied the production with WaveAgent sound reports overnight, but apparently the editors do not accept them, and expect the actual file name to allow them to find the material they want,cwithout actuallyopening the file and listening or looking at the time code.  

 

 

 

 

[chris_bollard]

I would explain the difficulty in renaming the WAV files -also makes the bread crumbs to piece it all together harder to follow. The notes section in the metadata is the place to enter this kind of information - or very short note in the track name. Maybe roll a dummy set of takes using notes and then PDF a sound report and show the producer how easy it is to find the descriptions from there.

[Nate C]

I don't see an easy way of doing what they desire without giving you the time and information required to enter the correct meta data. To me it seems like there is unrealistic expectations. Basic meta data can of course be entered, but the art of capturing good sound (albeit in large crowds… useable sound) should be first and foremost. The good field producers or should I say edit conscious ones, I have worked with have always taken brief notes with the time of day, to facilitate wading through the often vast amounts extraneous material captured.    

[Marc Wielage]

On the verge of quoting someone else here, "these are unrealistic expectations." This is work that should be done by an assistant editor. This need not be expensive: hire a kid out of college for $10/hour and they can do it in 3-4 hours a day, tops. Hell, they can sync it up with picture in another couple of hours. 

 

There are some jobs where you just have to walk away from them, especially when the people involved are arrogantly stupid. Please print out my message and send it to them -- in fact, if they want to call me, I'll tell them why they're being stupid and unreasonable with the sound department.

 

You can damn well bet that the CAMERA FILES do not reflect scene and take numbers... so explain to me again why the sound files have to.

 

Update: great minds think alike! You beat me by 1 minute, Nate.

[old school]

Fast, Cheap, Good.... 2 of the 3 is all that is possible. Tell the editor to go f off in the politest, most professional way you can. He/She has a lot of balls to tell you how to do your job. Have them tell the director or cameraman to stop and give you time. Talk about unreal expectations.... There is no magic way to do what they want. They are going to have to work with TOD TC.

CrewC

[Jeff Wexler]

As with any other documentary, have one person with continuous TOD timecode reader log everything they think they need, takes notes (as extensive as they are able to do and if this is all they are doing it will be a lot useful "data") and deliver all of that to post. Don't mess with filenames, metadata (beyond simple TC) and leave it at that. "Unreal expectations" is too charitable when characterizing these people and this production.

[Mirror]

^^This.  Someone else follows with a timecode reader and takes notes of when/where/who.  Not your job to be their secretary.

[studiomprd]

phenix: " Any suggestions on how to satisfy the requirement "

the requirements = unreasonable expectations,  sounds like a script supervisor (or a logger PA -maybe the field producer--) is needed for taking notes on this gig, and you can tell them that.

OK, I wrote that after reading the OP, but not the replies...

seems great minds travel in the same gutter! 

 

" We have supplied the production with WaveAgent sound reports overnight, but apparently the editors do not accept them, and expect the actual file name to allow them to find the material they want,cwithout actuallyopening the file and listening or looking at the time code. "

or they can have assistants preview, log, and even update the wave agent reports-logs and the files.

 

maybe the camera folks can enter all this data in their meta-data, which will link back via your TC entries!

[phenix]

Thank you all for your encouraging responses.  

 

The WaveAgent sound reports I create have all available info on them, but they are made by me when I get home  after the WAV files have been delivered to production on evening of each day.  So if the assistant editor were to look at the .WAV files in their possession, they would not have metadata identifying info--but if they looked at the sound report I send via email, it would be pretty clear what is what.

 

I have found extremely useful suggestions in all these replies, and a lot of support for my own feelings about this.  

 

On the other hand I don't want to lose the job over a secretarial issue.  In this case, all other aspects of the job are very good.  So I am hoping for a simple solution that someone might suggest that I could implement.  

 

I am following R. VanDyke's low tech (!!) method, writing notes manually on white tape and in a little notebook when I can,  noting time code start, then using this to augment the sound reports.  And I am changing scenes on the 664 when feasible to do so, but  don't have a chance to name the scenes on the fly.  If I knew what was going to happen in advance I could perhaps pre-load a number of generic scene types, which might help them.

 

I do agree and feel strongly that the role of script supervisor/logger is best done by a person with a different set of priorities.  In the documentary realm, the producer's reply to this has at times been, "well,sorry but we don't have the luxury of another person on location to do that."

 

Years ago, I started work for a production company that produced excellent documentaries, very happy to be there.  The first day of the shoot, one of the partners came over to me as I was changing reels on the Nagra:  "I see you're writing on that tape box".   I was noting the camera roll and sound reel number.  "We don't allow that.  Put the marker away.  Change the tape, put it in the box, and keep rolling."  His explanation at the bar that night was.  "We have assistant editors who have ESP.  They can sync anything.  The job of the sound mixer is to get good sound onto the tape."   This was before time code had been implemented.

[RPSharman]

They are asking you to do this so they don't need to hire a person to keep notes. There expectations are unrealistic, and you need to confidently let them know that you welcome the responsibility, but it isn't feasible. If your attention is taken away from recording sound in order to address file naming, the producers will miss content they are paying you for. Both you and the editor work for the producer, and I'd expect the producer will back you up here. Files can be sorted later. Missed content cannot.

[stevegrider]

In your situation, I would tell them that it is impossible to do what they want on the fly. I would do my best to voice slate after the take is over with all pertinent info. In your situation, that is being a team player and doing what you can do to help them out.

[Philip Perkins]

As good a soundie as the OP is, some requests are just not doable.  If this is something that these filmmakers are used to, then you have to ask who their previous soundie was and ask them how they did what they are asking for.  If that is not the situation then you need to speak with the posties NOW.  I'd say that this convo should have taken place long before you started to shoot, but I know that isn't always possible.  I would make a list of what you think you can and can't handle re data entry, and send it to them.  The editors may be used to some sort of centrally-managed reality tv style audio where the sort of on the fly data entry you mention is possible, and there are scripties taking notes in real time off TC.  For you, you're about 2 hands short to do what they want.  The fact that you are putting in time after hours to do their reports is above and beyond--they need to have some AEs step up for this.  Even if then gave you a boom op that you could have on wireless you still couldn't keep up with the data while also walking running and mixing, and anyhow, you say they aren't giving you the data to enter in a timely fashion anyway.

p

[studiomprd]

phen quotes producer: " "well,sorry but we don't have the luxury of another person on location to do that." "

answer: 'well then it cannot get done that way..' the additional person needed is not a luxury, if this is required that is an unreasonable expectation, as RPS notes: " Files can be sorted later. Missed content cannot. "

PP notes: " you are putting in time after hours to do their reports "  IOW, you are working OT, and for free...(I'll bet your days are already long enough.

Edited August 20, 2014 by studiomprd

[Rob Lewis]

Do they want good sound or good notes. Can only have one. I told a producer NO today who asked me to take photos with his camera for the clients social media web site while I was mixing a Q&A press conference. Some jobs aren't with the unreal expectations.

[mulluysavage]

You could rent them an IFB headset for a scriptie to take notes on their laptop with. I do many doc-style jobs where we do this and someone plays this role- producer, AP, PA.

[Boomboom]

What Jeff said above is exactly what we usually do here.

My job is to bring the Comteks and lock the TC on set.

Some use Movie Slate for their notes with TC jammed on the iPad; even if it skips a few frames it's no big deal with that method.

It's 99% of the times the director's assistant doing the job. Moreover since the line's getting thinner and thinner with time between "documentary" and "reality show" where everything's getting shot instead of setting (or thinking) things a little more before actually shooting; it seems they really need these notes for post/editing.

Edit: like Philip says below: '' If the director wants to shoot this way then all depts should share the pain.'' ... and I'd say, from my pov here: ''if the broadcaster wants the producer to want the director want to shoot this way...''

[Philip Perkins]

You could rent them an IFB headset for a scriptie to take notes on their laptop with. I do many doc-style jobs where we do this and someone plays this role- producer, AP, PA.

This and a TC reader +1.  Or get the posties off their asses.  If the director wants to shoot this way then all depts should share the pain.

 

philp

[phenix]

Good ideas.  I'm starting to get the right attitude here.  Thanks all, more later.

[Marc Wielage]

Fast, Cheap, Good.... 2 of the 3 is all that is possible. Tell the editor to go f off in the politest, most professional way you can.

 

I like the way CrewC thinks.

 

 

They are asking you to do this so they don't need to hire a person to keep notes. There expectations are unrealistic, and you need to confidently let them know that you welcome the responsibility, but it isn't feasible. If your attention is taken away from recording sound in order to address file naming, the producers will miss content they are paying you for. Both you and the editor work for the producer, and I'd expect the producer will back you up here. Files can be sorted later. Missed content cannot.

 

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

 

It sounds to me like they really need a PA on the set to kind of act as a de facto scriptie, and that would solve the problem. How much is this really going to cost? I'd still like to hear their explanation about how the camera files are all going to randomly named by roll number and date and all that stuff and have nothing to do with the scene name or scene description that is being shot. 

 

I also assume they don't have the luxury of slating, which I know is sometimes a condition of on-the-go documentaries.

[RPSharman]

I think, Marc, that their hope is to use the named sound files along with TC to then locate the correct camera files.

Again, they're trying to use the OP as a 2nd AC or Script Super.

[VASI]

If he follow the file name from camera?

[Jan McL]

If this material is for commercial use, someone's getting releases signed. That person can take note of approx time code (are you using TC slates?) Plenty of devices avail to have TC remoted to that person. 

 

As part of the interview, does director ask people to state and spell their names?

 

Sounds like an exploratory phone call with editorial is in order. Sometimes knowing why editorial wants x or y unreasonably leads to a simpler answer. They may know the names/numbers of sound people who have successfully given them what they want, but...suspect they're dreaming.

 

MovieSlate set up with approx time code and logging shots with each new subject would also yield approx time code for later notes.

 

You may be rolling all the time, but what do they think about you hitting record again to start a new file with every new interviewee? 

 

I would ask the director for the names and numbers of sound people who have successfully gotten him what he asks for and be prepared to grin broadly when the response is, "You'd be the first..."

[Peter Mega]

I haven't read all the replies so apologies if this has been mentioned already.

Set up a lav mic or hand mic and do a verbal description onto a track of its own on your 664.

Clip the lav mic as close as possible to your mouth if it's a noisy environment. Or keep a hand mic in your bag/kit and ID into that. Easier than retracting your boom to verbal ID.

Those editors should come out to location one day and see what you go through and they might actually get it after that.

Good luck

[phenix]

<<You may be rolling all the time, but what do they think about you hitting record again to start a new file with every new interviewee?>>

 

YES, YES, ALWAYS.

 

<<As part of the interview, does director ask people to state and spell their names?>>

 

RARELY --WILL REQUEST THIS.