Last Rites Films Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hey folks, I'm on a production right now (non-union reality show) that is arguing that OT doesn't start until after 12.5 hours after call time. Their reasoning behind this is because :30 is set aside for lunch. I countered that I have never heard of this, and that my previous invoices and deal memos with the company dictate that OT starts after 12 hours from call time, flat. They asked, "Why would we pay you to eat?," to which I replied, "I suppose because you aren't paying me overtime for the other 3.5 hours of work that would be overtime under law." It started a big back-and-forth, but what really bugs me is when they said, "What we are doing (the 12.5) is the way it's done. The standard." Well, it isn't from my experience, and I've been on some pretty long-running reality shows. Can anyone here attest to this, one way or another? Any links to legal documentation would be especially appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 No it's not "standard" this is why the length of our days should be strictly adhered to. Standard day is a 10+1 The +1 being one hour lunch. Overtime after the 11hr hour. Longer days, rate should be increased. I've never heard of a 30 minute lunch on a 12 hr day... If that Is a production requirement, that 30 minutes should definitely be paid. And, accept NO flats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) just from the title: "it depends" now, I'll read the post... yep, it really depends; they are correct, that the 1/2 hour lunch break is deductible, that is off the clock, although it is not un-common to begin OT after 12 from call time, this company is technically correct. are you on payroll? when you play the IC game, it can be less clear, but what you are implying is a mixture of labor law, and business (IC) practices. Many companies make a 12 hour deal, and then on the payroll stub you will see an hourly rate for 8, then 1.5 that rate for the next 4 hours, followed by 2 x after 12, and meal breaks may be deducted (unpaid) from the total time. edit: as to Field's comments: on IA gigs, the meal break is 1/2 hour if the production provides a hot, nourishing meal, and one hour if no meal (or only snacks!) is provided. the first meal break is typically deductible. in the last millennium, the IC quoted days that were typically "ten", with OT beginning after the ten worked hours, but actually in the IC world, it is somewhat a jungle, and a matter of what is actually negotiated. Edited August 28, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Union or not, federal law says 8 hrs is standard and ot after 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Union or not, federal law says 8 hrs is standard and ot after 8. I'm not a labor lawyer but the rule is 40 hours total in a 7 day time period (week) for hourly workers. You can work 12x3 alternated with 12x4 as long as some of the 12x4 hours slide into the next 12x3 week. Also, 10x4 is very common and legal. This is just federal law. Contracts and state laws can be different. Best, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Union or not, federal law says 8 hrs is standard and ot after 8. Larry is more precisely correct, however, this is for employees, and not IC's. also, RVD has pointed out that union contracts can actually trump the federal (and state) labor laws. folks claiming to be IC's who also want to apply labor laws can run into issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Goldberger Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 At least in NYC, this is becoming pretty typical. When I'm doing a job where I Invoice, I don't deduct the 1/2 hour unless discussed explicitly. On jobs where labor is recorded through a time card, I also try to make sure that it is clear that the 1/2 hour is not to be deducted unless we're given a full half-hour from "last man in"--otherwise the clock never stops. But the bigger issue for me is fuck 12-hour days. E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 When did 12 hour days become the norm? I still mostly do an 8 or 10 including a 30 min or 1 hour lunch (depending if they are feeding us or not). I will occasionally get a call for a 12 hour day and when i do my rate to them is my 10 hour rate plus 2 hours of ot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Union shows can and do break for a second meal. That time is deducted from your paid hours for the day. When you enter 2x depends on contract. If non-union, you're only bound by state law. Union contracts read 2x at 12 hours worked, or 12 hours elapsed, or 14 hours elapsed. Thankfully not 14 hours worked... yet. It used to ALWAYS be 12 hours elapsed. If we worked over 12 hours as a mixer, we'd get 9.5 hours of straight time, 2 hours of 1.5x, then go into 2x 12 hours after call (if 1/2 hour catered lunch). If an hour for lunch, 9.5 straight, 1.5 hours of 1.5x, then enter 12. These days, it is more often 12 hours of time worked or 14 hours of time elapsed. In terms of what's customary on non union, I'd guess it's 12 hours elapsed you enter 2x. The producer isn't "paying you for lunch". That time is deducted, but doesn't affect when you enter double time. All that is based on if you're an hourly hire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRWsound Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hi Folks, I don't usually post on here, but this is one I have a lot of experience with. Though my primary experience is with live mixing we work very similarly. While I also negotiate non-union contracts to the T and the dot of the I, I often try to negotiate for similar terms because it keeps my days similar. 12 hour day with 1 hour lunch (non provided) and 1 hour dinner (provided or not) Anything beyond that is OT I will admit we're a little whiny on the live side so we also get a 10 minute break every two hours (which we all know becomes 15) at the end of the day it's a balance between work and rest. I've also worked salary mixing positions on tours and various university gigs. The pay is even... the hours not so much. At the end of the day even though it's a job and I want to go "home", I also do it because I have a true passion for the job and there are very few fields out there where the same can be said and I consider myself lucky to be a member of such a talented group of professionals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Rites Films Posted August 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thank you for the quick responses. As mentioned in OP, I have previous deal memos and invoices confirming that OT starts at 12 hours, so I'm good for this gig. But a friendly dialogue with this client is definitely in order, it seems. fieldmixer, when I said "flat," I meant to imply that my day rate was good up to 12 hours. Not "flat" meaning an unlimited shooting day. Senator, I'm not on payroll for this job, but that's good advice for other gigs I work. Eric, interestingly enough, production mentioned that my day rate be calculated in a way that it assumes a base rate for 8, 1.5x for the 9th and 10th hour, and 2x for the 11th and 12th. I may have to retool my rate accordingly. RVD, I pray and hope there are rules for non-union shows. I trust you mean the rules are difficult to enforce. Just because you are NU doesn't mean you can freely practice sexual discrimination, for example. Or that you can claim no responsibility if someone is hurt and killed on a production. But I get your point. Standing up for myself, when I was clearly in the right legally, has absolutely cost me my job more than once. And as many fellow mixers have told me, it seems like the job vanishes as soon as you try to spell these things out. The producers have a very "take it or leave it approach," and I struggle to find the right words and tone in the negotiating process. Solid, as much as I would like to say **** the 12 hour day, I would never work if I did. That being said, if anyone wants to help me get into the union and can get me a union job, I would love to put this ridiculousness behind me forever. Hopefully, these sneaky tactics will decline, if for no other reason than I'm seeing so many good mixers throwing in the towel, and it's getting harder for productions to get good mixers. At least, that's what I'm noticing in my tiny world. Thanks again, folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Rites: " I pray and hope there are rules for non-union shows " pretty much the only rules for non-union shows are the applicable labor laws, if you are an employee; as an IC, you are on your own for what you negotiate (or don't negotiate, as the case may be!) Independent Contractors (non-employees) are only subject to contract law, and the specific terms of the contract; between the 'contracting parties' labor laws are not applicable, as the parties, in a valid IC relationship, are specifically disavowing employer employee relationships! Edited August 28, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Don't be quick to think the union will get you away from your "ridiculousness". I'll point out the union has negotiated away any reasonable working conditions, and has dramatically and systematically reduced average rates for most of its members by accepting numerous side-letters for the majority of productions. Your original post commented that it was "common practice" for double time to occur after 12 hours elapsed. Most union shows are paid double time after 12 hours worked, so 12.5 or 13 hours after call depending on the length of the lunch break, or quite often after 14 hours from call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 RPS: " after 14 hours from call. " and sometimes after 14 hours worked (deductible meals) ... BTW, another connected issue is what is the "out time" (aka end time); just because someone says "wrap", doesn't mean all the work is finished... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 BTW, another connected issue is what is the "out time" (aka end time); just because someone says "wrap", doesn't mean all the work is finished... Yes! And, I would just like to add, do not be afraid to say no thanks. it is empowering. I've been saying no to flats. And it feels good. If more of us say no, flats will be gone the way of the dodo. We have quite an opportunity being a smallish community. If banded together, a standard reasonable expectation becomes the norm. And producers embarrassed to offer the sound mixer a flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldmixer Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Yes! And, I would just like to add, do not be afraid to say -no thanks. It is empowering. I say no to flats, more often than ever it seems, and it feels good. If more of us say no, flats will be gone the way of the dodo. We have quite an opportunity being a smallish community. If banded together, a standard reasonable expectation becomes the norm. And producers will be embarrassed to offer the sound mixer a flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 "Why would we pay you to eat?," - Nice. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Solid, as much as I would like to say **** the 12 hour day, I would never work if I did. That being said, if anyone wants to help me get into the union and can get me a union job, I would love to put this ridiculousness behind me forever. Michael, you can get into local 695 anytime if you just come up with the initiation fee and pay the quarterly dues. I'm positive you already have more than enough TV credits, and there's several people around LA who will vouch for you. The union jobs... that's a lot harder, as is getting on the roster. Reality is a really tough market, and the producers and production companies are pulling out all the stops at keeping the union out. (Though that didn't work with the editors on Survivor recently.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 RL: " Absolute Standard for reality shows " absolutely not! sorry, if it were such, this discussion would not be taking place... RVD speaks truth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Be the change, don't be a victim..... It applies to all aspects of life. Thanks RVD... CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncsound Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 My rate card explicitly states that breaks are included in my 10 hour day, 1.5x from 10-12 and 2x after 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Faison Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 In my experience with reality shows and the companies that produce them, a 12hr day is standard. 6hrs on, 30min off, another 6 on, then an NDD if they are going to go into OT. I wouldn't say "absolute standard" as I've done some negotiated 10hr days, but don't look for any non-union reality shows to offer up anything less than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 RL: " There are more and more people that think they can do sound. " and many of them can do sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 RL: " and many more that have no business doing it. " I'm guessing you sprang into the marketplace fully knowledgeable and well experienced ..? for some reason I'm remembering a friend of mine, a well paid, union 737 Captain saying he was basically a well paid bus driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Your comments are not harsh at all RVD. I respect your thoughts and Crew's thoughts. The reality is, the world is not an easy place any more. There are more and more people that think they can do sound. There are guys out there teaching reality sound schools and doing online videos giving away all the techniques that took many of is years to develop, and there is always gonna be some newbie that will work the 12 at the low rate, and therefore the standard is set and there is no combining them otherwise. Either take what they offer and dont complain, or don't take job. People have to make a living, cause it ain't as easy to get a job in this country anymore. All good point from those vets. But unless everyone says no, than this will continue. And not everyone is gonna say no. All good points but at what point does the 12 hour "norm" evolve into a 13 hour "norm"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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