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We need to do our bkup?


foliver

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Hi, i' m on set now, in a 12 weeks HBO series.

The other day, for the first time in my life, after 3 weeks of shooting, the DIT asked to me to do my own bkup, because they ( the house post prod that provides equipment and DIT on set ) cannot check every sound take, so the CF i provide them is just to sync for daylies ( even if they do 3 copies of all sound in different discs).

So they say they're not responsables for the "healthy " of the sound i provide at the end of the day, because it's not all checked.

Sometimes i copy the hd of my Cantar, because i want to have some nice atmos, or fx i recorded, but not for security reasons.

Anyone has experienced the same speech, and has been in the same position before?

Thanks

Fabian

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Fabian: " Anyone has experienced the same speech, and has been in the same position before? "

if that is what they want, it is part of your job, and you are on the clock!

 

BTW: " Sometimes i copy the hd of my Cantar, because i want to have some nice atmos, or fx i recorded, "

the recordings you make for your client are usually their intellectual property, as, unless otherwise clearly specified, you are making them for them as a work for hire.

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It's not the DIT's or Data Wrangler's job to check for (technical/creative) sound quality. That's the mixer's job, and if a take was not good, it's part of the mixer's job to speak up and note the issue in the report, and if necessary, request another take. It's also the mixer's job to make sure the data he delivers at the end of the day is ok - that's why we record to two media, and why our recorders tell us if there is a drive error.

 

Strictly speaking, the Digital Imaging Technician will check the image files for technical aspects such as bad pixels, correct white balance, codec issues, TC, and so on.

The Data Wrangler will, well, "wrangle the data" ie. copy the files, check for file integrity, file system errors, and implement a reliable backup strategy (which might include giving three different drives to three different people in three different cars to be stored in three different places - "data that doesn't exist in three places doesn't exist"). This includes, IMHO, all files acquired during shooting. Image and sound. Both are "data", right?

 

I've often enough shot with one person handling both the DIT and the DW tasks.

 

Who is telling you to do your own backup? DIT or production? Have you talked to production about this issue?

Does your contract state that you are responsible for audio backup? Does it state to whom you give your files?

If production wants you to do the backups, then they must pay you to do that job, ie. for additional drives, and additional time, and for storing the drives in different places.

 

That being said, I will always do one (1) copy of my HDD. Not necessarily daily (It Depends!), but at least once a week. That's goodwill, and not stated in any contract. I've been called more than once "we lost all the sound files, can you help?", and you're the hero when you say YES. I wonder how they never lose picture files.

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They are being lazy.  They can decide that the "backup" is your problem, but you are busy mixing their show, so if there finally WAS a problem, who would it hurt?  THEM.  They would not have the sound from those shots and wouldn't be able to use it in their show.  I'm happy to be responsible for the tracks while I still have them in my possession, but after I hand them off (CF or whatever) then they become production's problem and responsibility.  They don't seriously think you have time to check every take you are recording every day, right?  Most data-wranglers I work with, even on the biggest jobs I do, will spot check a few files and then compare the total number of files and the total amount of data transferred to the CF card I've given them, that's about it--off they go.  On most jobs I keep the cards intact for a few days afterwards, or longer if I'm suspicious that they don't have their shit very together, but then the cards get recycled.

 

philp

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Hi,

Fabian: " Anyone has experienced the same speech, and has been in the same position before? "

if that is what they want, it is part of your job, and you are on the clock!

It's the DIT speach, the prod thinks it's wrong, the dit company sais they're a post image house, the ones are going to do the 3D fx.

The prod says they have a contract that specifies the will handle the sound along with the image.

Anyway i'm going to do the bkups, as extra time.

BTW: " Sometimes i copy the hd of my Cantar, because i want to have some nice atmos, or fx i recorded, "

the recordings you make for your client are usually their intellectual property, as, unless otherwise clearly specified, you are making them for them as a work for hire.

I know, but anyway. Sometimes i leave set to record atmos i like at lunch.

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It's the DIT speach, the prod thinks it's wrong, the dit company sais they're a post image house, the ones are going to do the 3D fx.

The prod says they have a contract that specifies the will handle the sound along with the image.

Is it a "DIT company" or a "3D Image Post house"? Actually, it doesn't matter. When somebody has been hired as a DIT, they ought to do a DIT's job.

 

Make sure your extra time is cleared with production, and get that in writing. You don't want production to complain about your extra hours (and extra price) because you did someone else's job.

And you don't want to be held responsible for data loss.

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Thks Phil and Peter,

When i talk "check sound files", i talk about safe copied files, not quality of sound.

I know nobody will check every file, and never on my previuos films, or series, have cheked one by one,that happens as you describe it.

In my contrat is not included to do bkups.

The Prod, ask me to do the bkups, just for extra safety, but they know i'm not responsable for that.

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Hi Philip, you are right

They have bring a fw 800 HD, just to have one copy.

I'm going to charge the copy time as xtra time.

I don't like the way the post house and the DIT proceeded.

Washing the hands, after ( i didn't mention it before) the DIT cames to me 5 days ago with a lot a afraid for loosing all the sound of day 1.

After that, he finds the sound on his HD's, and then all this episode starts....

Puaj.

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I'm going to charge the copy time as xtra time.

 

That's great! At least you found a way to make money on the deal. I don't think a day's worth of files will take more than 10 minutes to copy via FW800. It's possible you could convince them to do weekly backups and then just do it from your hotel room or something; I've certainly done that before, right before I go to sleep.

 

 

I don't like the way the post house and the DIT proceeded. Washing the hands, after ( i didn't mention it before) the DIT cames to me 5 days ago with a lot a afraid for loosing all the sound of day 1. After that, he finds the sound on his HD's, and then all this episode starts....

 

I've been on a few low-budget shoots where I show up at the end with my sound files and the DIT stares at me like I'm a leper, takes the disk and says, "so what am I supposed to do with this?" In their minds, they're only Digital Imaging Technicians and are only responsible for picture. They don't get that great picture with no sound is bad picture. I've occasionally had to make a call to the assistant editor in order to get them to crack the whip. 

 

I generally keep 6 months' work of backups at any one time, because you never know when something will slip through the cracks. I've only had people ask for takes twice -- once where I had it, once where the take did not exist -- but crap does happen.

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don't care if it is work for hire etc, i always maintain a copy of the rushes, in fact i have a copy of the rushes of work i have done in the last 8 years... 

 

once i was asked for a copy of files months after the project. 

 

in any case, the rushes (and post PT sessions etc) are my own reference, and good to have when i teach... 

 

-vin

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Hi all,

As Marc sais, It doesn't bothers me to copy the entire cantar disk before formating it, it's going to happens ....3 times on this project.

It's usual that i keep a bkup of the project with me because i like, for my sonotheque, and as Vin sais, when i teach.

The thing i don't like the most Is the DIT behaiviour, and the post company that hires him, and in any case i will not be responsable for the sound bkups of the series....

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I'm a IA600 DIT (I think it sounds like a skin affliction), and I always have a sound folder premade for downloading and backing up sound files. I don't think a sound mixer has made a DVD or shipped a CF card on my projects in the last 4 years.  And I have a headphone nearby for spot checking/scrubbing sound files. We always have time to slip in a paltry 6GB or so, and send the mixer home.

 

Editorial, receiving picture files without sound files is dumb.  Kinda screws up the workflow, if you ask me.  And, yes, the sound files also exist on the backup drive. And a diligent mixer will keep the recorded files for a couple of weeks...... some charmingly neurotic mixers will keep the files forever.

 

The Data Managers, hired by editorial or a Data Services contractor, have no history or knowledge of on-set protocol and manners.  A haughty bunch..... their attitude sticks out like a ZIT on their nose.  

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Hi David.

I just return to set from lunch.

I just came from the DIT room, where he make a download of the morning material in front of me.

Procedure:

Insert Cf on cf reader

He Opens an HD, in folder Day he has some others folders with image archives ( i supose).

Double click on the icon of the sound CF

He drags to his Hd the folder from de CF.

While coping the some 4gb, he closes the window of the CF.

Once copied the eject the CF.

Finished.

He doesn't compare numbers of archives, and "weight" of the CF and he's new sound folder.

Mad. And he's not a child, and is not a cheap proyect, at all.

Wow.

I need to think on the vacations i will take with my familly after that, if not the blood pressure will go up.

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Would it be possible to ask this data guy to do a little simple comparison of folder sizes and the number of files within?   Just take a few seconds…?

 

Dave L:  I'm outing you as a being a soundie as well as a DIT, and thus way more concerned about sound that yr average Dit-Dude!

Which is a great thing, says me.

 

philp

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The DIT has always taken my files at the end the day to download and to backup. But regardless, I always keep a back-up of my own. Not to use for later, but as safety and reference. I have had production companies call me up in panic because they cannot find certain audio files. This mostly happens because of mis-labeling. I would send them a file name for them to search, or just upload the files for them to download again. Problem solved. 

Accidents happen and files do get lost. I always want to be able to offer those files to the production company again when that occurs. These audio files don't eat up my hard drive space so I don't mind keeping a backup archive. 

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As someone who doesn't record on tape any more, the concept that backups create any kind of a dilemma, puzzles me.

Unless there is some copying anomaly, any copy of the files we create is a master, as well as being a backup to any other copy.

Once a DIT, or separate transfer person, copies the Compact Flash card mirror of my files to their hard drive, that same data exists in no less than three places: the production's hard drive, my recorder's internal drive, and on the CF card used for transfer. Each time the production company backs up their work, that creates another simultaneous master/safety.

Coupling that with the fact that each of my transmitters records a backup of its own ISO, and that I have another unit on the cart that automatically records a two-track backup of my mix, I feel that backups are well covered.

If production wants me to furnish a separate copy of the files, then I typically give them a DVD-RAM version. This happens less and less these days as productions learn the advantages of handling picture and sound files the same.

On a national spot the other day, the transfer guy wanted to get my sound files whenever he received cards from the Alexas so he could sync files as we shot. I carry a healthy (obsessive even?) supply of Compact Flash cards, so it was no issue.

With the Deva, I can stay up to date on making more than one mirror copy by swapping cards or DVD-RAMs, or both, during the day, and only having the last couple of files to finish at the end of a day (Zaxcom mirror copies each have a file that automatically keeps track of where it left off mirroring on that particular drive).

I.O.W., as long as I know ahead of time what deliverables are needed (a conversation I typically instigate early on), it's easy to stay ahead of the game.

If, at the end of the day, production surprises me with a request for an additional copy, I can simply furnish them with the mirrored Compact Flash card, and add it to my invoice, or make whatever copy they need on my cart computer, which will likely extend my "Out Time" a bit.

As far as cooperation from DITs, perhaps I'm really lucky, but the ones I've worked with seem to understand that we're all part of the same production. Working with them has been great.

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Thks Phil and Peter,

When i talk "check sound files", i talk about safe copied files, not quality of sound.

I stated this just to make sure we're talking about data integrity, and it is part of a DIT's job to check for picture quality.

I once met a DIT (at least that's what he called himself) once didn't want to have anything to do with the sound files because he thought he'd have to listen to all of them just as he has to look at all camera files.

 

 

 the DIT cames to me 5 days ago with a lot a afraid for loosing all the sound of day 1.

After that, he finds the sound on his HD's, and then all this episode starts....

Hi David.

I just return to set from lunch.

I just came from the DIT room, where he make a download of the morning material in front of me.

Procedure:

Insert Cf on cf reader

He Opens an HD, in folder Day he has some others folders with image archives ( i supose).

Double click on the icon of the sound CF

He drags to his Hd the folder from de CF.

While coping the some 4gb, he closes the window of the CF.

Once copied the eject the CF.

Finished.

He doesn't compare numbers of archives, and "weight" of the CF and he's new sound folder.

Mad. And he's not a child, and is not a cheap proyect, at all.

Wow.

I need to think on the vacations i will take with my familly after that, if not the blood pressure will go up.

 

Well, then production seem to be very wise to have someone else who knows his job (you) do backups too.

 

The DIT has always taken my files at the end the day to download and to backup. But regardless, I always keep a back-up of my own. Not to use for later, but as safety and reference. I have had production companies call me up in panic because they cannot find certain audio files. This mostly happens because of mis-labeling. I would send them a file name for them to search, or just upload the files for them to download again. Problem solved. 

Accidents happen and files do get lost. I always want to be able to offer those files to the production company again when that occurs. These audio files don't eat up my hard drive space so I don't mind keeping a backup archive. 

That's exactly why I do backup my files. Just not "officially". I don't want to be held responsible if my drive goes bad or whatever.

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I'm not sure I understand the problem.

I keep a copy of all my files until the project comes out in theaters, airs, etc. It's not that big of a deal.

Do I trust the data wranglers and/or DITs? Sure. But why not keep a copy?

Copying and keeping audio files isn't a big deal, that's why we can afford to throw it in.

The problem, to me, is about responsibilities. I don't want to be the guy who gets blamed if data gets lost.

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Copying and keeping audio files isn't a big deal, that's why we can afford to throw it in.

The problem, to me, is about responsibilities. I don't want to be the guy who gets blamed if data gets lost.

 

Once we hand off the CF to production or the DIT, then our responsibility is over.  And if they try to "blame" us, then I just say "I'm not sure what happened, but I have another copy of the files.  I'll get them to you right away."  Once the problem is solved, they no longer care what went wrong.

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Once we hand off the CF to production or the DIT, then our responsibility is over.  And if they try to "blame" us, then I just say "I'm not sure what happened, but I have another copy of the files.  I'll get them to you right away."  Once the problem is solved, they no longer care what went wrong.

Exactly. That way we are the "hero" if they make a mistake.

 

But what if they don't want to take the responsibilities they ought to - like the OP has experienced.

the DIT asked to me to do my own bkup, because they (...) cannot check every sound take, so the CF i provide them is just to sync for daylies (...).

So they say they're not responsables for the "healthy " of the sound i provide at the end of the day, because it's not all checked.

Then we are being blamed for something they should have done.

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we are moving towards automatic delivery of our work products (sound files and the reports that go with them.  In perhaps as little as ~6 years the files will be able to go via the cloud directly from our machines to the clients for the next steps in the workflow.

 

PK: " Then we are being blamed for something they should have done. "

it is the same old "blame game",  so..?

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They are being lazy.  They can decide that the "backup" is your problem, but you are busy mixing their show, so if there finally WAS a problem, who would it hurt?  THEM.  They would not have the sound from those shots and wouldn't be able to use it in their show.  I'm happy to be responsible for the tracks while I still have them in my possession, but after I hand them off (CF or whatever) then they become production's problem and responsibility.  They don't seriously think you have time to check every take you are recording every day, right?  Most data-wranglers I work with, even on the biggest jobs I do, will spot check a few files and then compare the total number of files and the total amount of data transferred to the CF card I've given them, that's about it--off they go.  On most jobs I keep the cards intact for a few days afterwards, or longer if I'm suspicious that they don't have their shit very together, but then the cards get recycled.

 

philp

Exactly.

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