Tom Duffy Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 wow, the Tascam hs p82 has an EIN of -112dbu (a-weighted). (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm) thats very poor, this ones also out.. Incorrect, that has to be a measurement error. "Lies, damn lies and Internet statistics" I'll try to find the real value. Frequency response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz 0 dB (±0.5 dB) Fs = ALL -1dB at 40 kHz (±1.0 dB) Fs = 88.2/96 kHz -3dB at 80 kHz (+1/–2 dB) Fs = 176.4/192 kHz very suited for Classical recording and effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramallo Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) The data presented on the high frequency side of the graph in this thread is incorrect. It looks like a measurement filter is engaged on the analyzer. Nomad is flat to 22KHz. The nomad will I believe do 8 channels with a fast memory card. Glenn Two different analyzers and no low pass The Mini setup without the Nomad Edited September 24, 2014 by ramallo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramallo Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Don't be afraid by the scale of the picture, -4.5dB at 40 Hz is not a big deal and can easily be reversed with a Low Shelf Filter on post prod. Yes, I suggested on Zaxcom forums do a eq correction on the Nomad, for example with a button on every input called "flat". I have a preset on my Nuendo with the inverse eq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Tom, Are you saying the specifications and measurements on Tascam HS-P82 are incorrect? I have download the HS-P82 manual and I don't see the EIN measurement. In other specifications (and not specifications/features like USB etc) the HS-P82 is clear (what Ω, Vrms, etc). "Lies, damn lies and Internet statistics" (which a manufacturer publish) helped me at first to see and understand who good and not good is one product (and after my decision to buy or not to buy it). When one manufacturer do not publish specifications only "Lies, damn lies and Internet statistics" have (in a bad way this time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Duffy Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) Simply put, I have a problem with how Avisoft did their measurements / calculations, and they ended up with a wrong value for EIN for the HS-P82, and published it. Magazines etc would contact us directly if they ran into a anomaly such as about 15dB less performance than expected before printing. From our own measurements (sign fixed) A weighting, 40 Ohm. raw measurements were between -127.9 and -128.1dBu across 8 channels of the test device. 150 Ohm measurements average -127dBu The catalog spec is to be written as -125dBu. Edited September 24, 2014 by Tom Duffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 ... From our own measurements: A weighting, 150 Ohm. raw measurements were between 127.9 and 128.1dBu across 8 channels of the test device. The catalog spec is to be written as 125dBu. I'm hoping you mean, -127.9 and -128.1dBu, as well as -125dBu, (note, the addition of the minus sign) otherwise you may no longer have operational ear drums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Duffy Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 D'Oh. up is down, etc... The correct spec has been published to our webpage as well now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 This is a good performance for EIN (A-weight), around 3.9 dB extra noise. Thanks Tom. Why 3.9 dB extra noise? Well, with 150 Ω source impedance, 20 °C and 20 kHz bandwidth the thermal noise is -130.9 dBu. The quietest mic preamplifiers can achieve a noise figure of around 1.0 dB with a 150 Ω source. Thermal noise is fundamental and cannot be eliminated. Another example is with 50 Ω source impedance, 20 °C and 20 kHz bandwidth the thermal noise is -135.7 dBu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Please don't look to much at all these numbers. There's only so much they can tell you. Emil, if you are happy with the Sound Devices recorders then get one. To get preamps that will be better better than a 7xx recorder or a Nomad/Maxx you will have to spend some serious money. Or forgo the "location" part and get something rackmount, which could still be mobile to a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 Yeap. Don't look all these numbers. Spend 6.000€ for a recorder and some day you will discover a mic preamp with 1.500€ has a better sound than the 6.000€. Or spend 6.000€ + in a recorder without a proper published specifications from manufacturer. Plug the damn microphone on it and press record. Sounds good. Eat me now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Please don't look to much at all these numbers. There's only so much they can tell you. Emil, if you are happy with the Sound Devices recorders then get one. To get preamps that will be better better than a 7xx recorder or a Nomad/Maxx you will have to spend some serious money. Or forgo the "location" part and get something rackmount, which could still be mobile to a degree. no, problem is, that the 788t has no limiters when recording 96kHz. if this would work, i would had it by now and this thread would not exist:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Simply put, I have a problem with how Avisoft did their measurements / calculations, and they ended up with a wrong value for EIN for the HS-P82, and published it. Magazines etc would contact us directly if they ran into a anomaly such as about 15dB less performance than expected before printing. From our own measurements (sign fixed) A weighting, 40 Ohm. raw measurements were between -127.9 and -128.1dBu across 8 channels of the test device. 150 Ohm measurements average -127dBu The catalog spec is to be written as -125dBu. oh, thats good to know! do you talked to raimund (avisoft) about it? if you say "we", i expect you are from tascam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 is it true that the limiters from the Tascam hs p82 are behind the AD stage? whats the point in that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 no, problem is, that the 788t has no limiters when recording 96kHz. if this would work, i would had it by now and this thread would not exist:-)Sure, but I don't understand what you need limiters for, with the work you intend to do with the recorder "Limiter or any other solution to avoid clipping" (post 1) There are other ways to achieve that in fx and ambience recording My recommendation: wait until the Cantar X3 comes out and then try to get a used X2. Some of the best preamps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Duffy Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 is it true that the limiters from the Tascam hs p82 are behind the AD stage? whats the point in that?? It's an analog/digital hybrid. When the limiter is engaged, it takes some headroom from the analog side, but the curve is in DSP. Merit : by dropping the analog gain a fixed amount, there is no pumping of the noise floor as the limiter works. For a field recorder, the limiter is a "save your bacon" feature, not a tool for sound creation. Tom (TASCAM) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 There is a lot of information on this thread that requires a little balance. All portable recorders (other than Zaxcom recorders with Neverclip) have with 1 A-D per channel and some sort of input limiter that distorts the signal. These input limiters distort the signal to fit within the limited dynamic range of the single A-D converter per channel of the recorder usually with about 114-116dB of dynamic range. Some recorders use transformers on their inputs. These transformers (usually touted as a feature) isolate the input and provide low frequency distortion that I consider to be a bad thing. Transformers are no longer necessary to make a good microphone input. A Zaxcom recorder with Never clip has 136 dB of Dynamic range. This eliminates the need for an input limiter and the inherent distortion that comes with it. The Nomad is used world wide right next to world class (Very expensive) rack mount preamps with similar if not better results. No matter how good the preamp is, if the A-D does not have enough dynamic range then the result will limited distorted audio at high SPLs. "For a field recorder, the limiter is a "save your bacon" feature, not a tool for sound creation." Agreed, eliminate the limiter distortion and now you can go places. That is what Nomad and Maxx do very well. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resonate Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 in the Nomad manual frequency response is stated as "50 Hz to 22 kHz (48 kHz sampling-rate)" Neverclip is great, but why there's a high pass filter on the nomad inputs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Contemporary mic amp design can be categorized into four types of active elements: discrete semiconductor, vacuum tube, integrated circuit, and hybrid (i.e., any combination of the prior three). Within these categories are found FETs, bipolars, IC function modules, IC opamps, discrete opamps, and so forth. Irrespective of which active devices are chosen for a mic amp, a key design consideration remains the coupling of input, interstage, and output circuits. Common coupling methods include transformers, capacitor, servo, and direct. All mic preamps use at least one of these coupling methods, and many offer a combination. Preamp input impedance seems an issue of both personal taste and objective criteria. One preamp specifies an input impedance of less than 1,000 ohms, while another shows a figure of 7,800 ohms. A large number of mic preamps, however, claim a frequency dependent input impedance between 1,000 and 2,000 ohms. By definition, a minimum ratio of about 5:1 between preamp input impedance and microphone output impedance is required for proper bridging. Too little input impedance will increase noise and unduly load most microphones. All microphone preamplifiers exhibit unique coloration to a lesser or greater degree. In audio electronics, there is no such thing as a straight wire with gain. Further, because of the differences between each preamp’s unique loading and gain characteristics, any microphone will respond differently when matched to different preamps. Specifications should be treated with respect, but your ears should be the final judge of any preamp’s performance. -- Glenn, First it is matter how good is a microphone & mic preamp (if well matched) and second the A/D. First because is the "sound creation" and second the technology (like NeverClip). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Sure, but I don't understand what you need limiters for, with the work you intend to do with the recorder "Limiter or any other solution to avoid clipping" (post 1) There are other ways to achieve that in fx and ambience recording My recommendation: wait until the Cantar X3 comes out and then try to get a used X2. Some of the best preamps well, with ambience recordings of course i don´t need limiters at all, but with fx recordings its a different thing. when recording fx things can get unpredictable, (depending on what you record...). first sound was ok, second smash had way too loud transients:-) and so on.. to wait for the x2 might be a good idea... although i don´t think that the prices will drop a lot.. and wheres the place such thing get sold used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 @Glenn: so, you have a fixed lowpass in your nomad, yes or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 and wheres the place such thing get sold used?Wherever, there are dozens, at least. In Germany, there's Kortwich, of course. Any of the other film gear shops may have one. There was also a used Cantar on Crew United a few months ago. And of course, all the usual suspects in the US may sell one at some point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Something I just thought of: One other route for you to consider are digital mics, such as the Neumann KMD series. The dynamic range of their internal A/D converter (which consists of two A/D converters, similar to the NeverClip system) offer 133dB dynamic range, or up to 140dB without a capsule. They do still have a limiter, I think, but you can set it yourself, or switch it off altogether. With them you could even use the 788T again, because you won't need its limiters anymore. You can also use any other recorder with five digital inputs, ideally AES42. Price-wise you'll still be better off than with a Cantar, and you'd have what's arguably the cleanest signal path possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramallo Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 IMMO the headroom of the Nomad probably is the best of the market, but the Nomad's problem is the lack of linearity on his inputs, this is a form of distortion (linear) and in this case is big Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Something I just thought of: One other route for you to consider are digital mics, such as the Neumann KMD series. The dynamic range of their internal A/D converter (which consists of two A/D converters, similar to the NeverClip system) offer 133dB dynamic range, or up to 140dB without a capsule. They do still have a limiter, I think, but you can set it yourself, or switch it off altogether. With them you could even use the 788T again, because you won't need its limiters anymore. You can also use any other recorder with five digital inputs, ideally AES42. Price-wise you'll still be better off than with a Cantar, and you'd have what's arguably the cleanest signal path possible. well, thats an idea! although i have no experience concerning this... i read about a few drawbacks using digital mice, but i forgot what that was.. however, the neumann is not interesting for me, as i need the high frequency from the mkh8000er series. but they (sennheiser) have a digital module, too. don´t know if they go the same route with 2 converters... its at least the same company.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ek4 Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 IMMO the headroom of the Nomad probably is the best of the market, but the Nomad's problem is the lack of linearity on his inputs, this is a form of distortion (linear) and in this case is big yes, thats really a deal breaker for me. and this is making them a bit suspicious, as they haven´t stated anything about it on their website, and they don´t really comment on this... also that they don´t publish the EIN from the nomad.. or respond to questions in this regard.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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