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2 mono overhead mics


Bill Kerrigan

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This is my first post on this forum , so I apologize if this subject has been discussed before.

 

I’m a DP who often records sound on the camera, when shooting interviews.

Traditionally I use both a lav and overhead mic on a fixed stand.

The majority of my clients want the lav hidden.

 

I use either a Sanken COS-11R, Tram or Rode Pin lavaliere.

I own all the bits and pieces needed to hide a lav… and over the years, sound recordists have kindly shown me how to do it.

 

When I’ve ask editors after post, which sound track was used… 95 percent tell me the overhead and the others use a blend. So, on my shoots the lav appears to be, just a rarely used safety track.

 

Because some interviewees tend to move forward and back, I’ve been experimenting for the last 6 months placing 2 overhead mics with different patterns on the boom, then letting the editor choose the track they prefer.

 

Does anyone else use 2 mono overhead mics?

If not why?

 

Thanks,

Bill Kerrigan 

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Hi, Bill, and welcome: " Does anyone else use 2 mono overhead mics? "

I suppose...

" If not why? "

maybe we know better...?

 

" I’ve been experimenting for the last 6 months placing 2 overhead mics with different patterns on the boom, then letting the editor choose the track they prefer. "

which do you prefer..?  ...and which do "they" prefer ??

there you go!

 

" I apologize if this subject has been discussed before "

no need to apologize, it isn't your fault.

usually this is discussed as: 'what is the best mic...'

... and the (subjective) answer is always: 'it depends'.

 

Mark: " Then a recommendation can be made "

well, maybe Mark (another camera-person?) will make a recommendation...

 

 

 

and...

Bill: " when shooting interviews... The majority of my clients want the lav hidden. "

why ??

style over substance..?

are they hiding the fact that this is an interview ??

take a look at all the visible lav's:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/camera-assistant-killed-midnight-rider-train-accident-26618524

 

 

SENATOR Mike Michaels, CAS

Director of Production Sound  (DPS)

Edited by studiomprd
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My shoots go for hidden lavs nearly all the time, and the choice is good for the editor to have since we often work in locations that are noisy in a non-consistent way and the pieces are often assembled from the work of several crews.  This last may mean that a lav mic sound might make for a better audio cut from the interview just before or after, so we hang the lavs in spite of a preference for the boom and let the posties decide.
Re: two mics for "leaners", it is a perfectly good technique, I have had very experienced doco directors specify this approach for all their sit-down interviews, esp if they don't want to have any interruptions for mic adjustment in the case of a big lean-in.  Most of the time the 2nd mic isn't necessary, but it has been useful a handful of times.  It's I good idea to have two identical mics for this.

 

philp

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PP: " hidden lavs nearly all the time, and the choice is good for the editor to have..; "

are you saying hidden lav's are better than open lavs..?

" a lav mic sound might make for a better audio cut from the interview just before or after, so we hang the lavs in spite of a preference for the boom and let the posties decide. "

Of course, and I have done this frequently over many years...and, yes, sometimes hidden!
 

Edited by studiomprd
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Note: compare the answers, comments, to the question, from studiomprd (Senator) and from Philip Perkins. Senator's comments are what we have come to expect and unfortunately scores very high on the uselessness scale. The answer from Philip is also what we expect: knowledgeable and helpful advice offered with no additional agenda from a veteran sound mixer.

 

Thank you, Philip.

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Usually for sit down interior interviews, I use a Sennheiser MKH 50. It has a somewhat forgiving pattern. If I don't have an operator on the boom, I set the mic on a stand at an angle where it will compensate for an occasional subtle forward lean. If they lean forward more than a little, they could sometimes go out of focus, so being off axis doesn't seem so bad ;)

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I set the mic on a stand at an angle where it will compensate for an occasional subtle forward lean. If they lean forward more than a little, they could sometimes go out of focus, 

I do the same on a show with very long interviews. My stand has a long boom so I can correct it during the interview without doing any noise. On this show the DOP do not let the interviewees move too much, so one mic on the boom works on this show (and the producer do not want any lav). Anyway the idea of two mics on one boom may be useful.

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PP: " hidden lavs nearly all the time, and the choice is good for the editor to have..; "

are you saying hidden lav's are better than open lavs..?

" a lav mic sound might make for a better audio cut from the interview just before or after, so we hang the lavs in spite of a preference for the boom and let the posties decide. "

Of course, and I have done this frequently over many years...and, yes, sometimes hidden!

 

Here in the Department of Whatever we hide the lavs because the people whose company name is printed on the checks I receive for the work I do request it.   That has become SOP for me everywhere but TV-talk-show style jobs, not my idea, theirs.

 

phil p

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Mark, here is a list of my mics:

Sanken CS-3e, Sennheiser 416, Sennheiser MKH50, AKG C568, Oktava MK-012 x 2, Sanken COS-11R x 3, Tram x 5, Rode Pin Lav, AKG CK77, Sony 77.
 
Mike, I’ve never had advice from a Senator before… Cheers!
 
Philip, it’s encouraging to hear it’s a usable technique, it made sense to me… but I’ve just never seen it done before.  I was thinking of using a MKH50 and MKH40… do you think this would make a good combination? I would use Back-to Back Clips (part 048488) from Rycote. 
 
Jeff, thanks for the heads up… Looks like a wonderful forum!
 
 
Steve, I was using a MKH 50 on an interview last week (the director insisted on using a lav on the second channel).  The interviewee bobbed back and forth during the entire 2 days… the MKH 50 did a great job, but I wish I’d used a 2nd overhead.
 
Vincent, Merci… This was 2 day interview.
 
 
Bill Kerrigan - DP
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Note: compare the answers, comments, to the question, from studiomprd (Senator) and from Philip Perkins. Senator's comments are what we have come to expect and unfortunately scores very high on the uselessness scale. The answer from Philip is also what we expect: knowledgeable and helpful advice offered with no additional agenda from a veteran sound mixer.

Thank you, Philip.

+1

For interviews with "leaners" I tend to err on the forward side, then angle back towards the speaker. This puts the mic a little father away (but not much), and the sound will be more consistent through the range of motion of the speaker.

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If they lean forward more than a little, they could sometimes go out of focus, so being off axis doesn't seem so bad ;)

Though they can still replace the out of focus picture with some B-roll. Can't do that with sound, can you.

 

On the small number of interview stuff I do, it's about 90% visible lav. Producers' and director's decision, usually for "consistency reasons".

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http://blog.audio-technica.com/robert-bigelows-tips-mid-side-mic-recording/

 

I can imagine it useful in a "wide and tight" 2 camera situation as well...assuming wide still allows reasonable mic placement.

 

Rich, the article on mid-side recording by Robert Bigelow is very interesting!

This was a 2 camera shoot, Mid Shot and CU.

 

I promote myself as a cameraman, but I'm also a filmmaker, so I have some limited experience mixiing sound tracks.

I'd love to experiment blending 2 overhead mics with different patterns, giving a sightly different sound between the CU and Mid Shot.

 

Is this a good idea or a bad one?

 

Bill Kerrigan - DP

Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Like some others here, I usually place the boom to allow for a bit of "wiggle room" by cheating it a tad forward. It normally doesn't take much.

Also, pay close attention to what Crew said, with dual overheads, instead of working to get one mic just right you may only achieve compromised positions for two mics.

... Which post may not even go to the trouble of using anyway -- therefore compromising the final result even more.

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I've found keeping it simple is almost always the best path. Sometimes we over think "it" to death. One overhead and one lav is plenty for a simple interview. I'm not surprised post uses the OH mostly.

CrewC

 

Of course,with three mics. and potential phasing issues,post can screw it up---they might have all three up.

 

                                                                                                           J.D.

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It’s not that I want it complicated… I want it better.

 

I should point out, I'm an older guy who has filmed for over 40 years in over 40 countries…  I bought a used Nagra in 1973.

I’ve always been an innovator… I may have been the first to adapt a Sony Walkman Pro with crystal sync and mount it on my Arri.

 

An example of one of the docs I’ve shot, is the history of Canadian music. So far we’ve made 4 one hour shows… over 350 interviews.  I want the next doc to sound even better!

 

 

Bill (a cameraman who is passionate about sound) Kerrigan

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It’s not that I want it complicated… I want it better.

Sure. We should all want better. I don't think 2 mics on a boom and a lav will do what you think it will but no harm in trying to do it that way. Usually any difference in the sound quality or levels comes off as a problem akin to a visual jump cut. Maybe one of our post members will chime in about this as well. Also if 2 open mics on a stand were to work you'd need to have them on separate tracks as well as the lav. Good luck.

CrewC

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ken: " I want it better. "

 

for interviews:

http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=1273
http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=231
http://www.cliffmics.com/store/rm1
http://www.ribbonmics.com/microphone/legacy-series/ku4
http://www.ribbonmics.com/microphone/active-series/a440

 

I could suggest a whole bunch more, including dynamics like the EV 666, EV 667, Shure SM5B and SM7B, even the Senn MD421 and MD-441, 

and how about a pre like the VT-2 or the VT-21 www.dwfearn.com ...?

 

but in the end...

 

It is not about the arrows, it is about the archer.

Edited by studiomprd
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