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Documentary Production Sound Options--Mixpre-d + Zaxcom ZFR100 and ERX


nomados

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I'm a doc director who typically works without a dedicated mixer on location and instead relies on a mixture of on-camera mics/boom, lavs to camera and atmosphere recorded to separate recorder. Currently looking at a few options both to improve noise and post sync issues while shooting with c300.

 

One flexible option that seems appealing is using a MIxpre-d in a small bag recording to ZFR100. What I don't understand is how we could use Zaxnet to jam to camera using an ERX onboard. Does that work? If you have the STA stereo adapter, could we record two tracks to ZFR100 while sending same via Zaxnet to ERX and record to camera?

 

Obviously, getting a Maxx is also attractive, but wondering if we could build a smartly/more flexible solution. First priority is TC sync. Second is overall weight (in bag and on-camera). Third is the ability to transmit somehow to camera. The last is ability to simply wire talent with ZFR and confidence monitor/record  from camera.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated. Was at Prosound last week and spent a few days trying to get my head around wha Zax can and can not do. Obviously, a huge selling point is Neverclip for us.

 

Thanks,

 

Tucker

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How about you get a small TC box like Mozegear TIG28 or Tentacles, jam the Zax recorder to that and then bongo-tie the TIG to the camera, feeding it TC?  Sound thru the MixPre to the ZFR like you said,  camera mic on on the camera (always a good idea for verite), sync via TC (Resolve etc).    Good for you trying to improve one man band camera audio, your movie will be much better for it.

 

philp

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NeverClipTM is cool feature, but you need a professional mixer / recordist which can handle - play (and know when and why) with it and a post production which can mix it and done a properly job with other sources. It's pointless if you have a top quality microphones, recorder etc when you are not have a skilled recordist and proper post production. Otherwise you just throw money in the air.

 

Don't forget the Rule Number 13 from Michael Moore.

 

Grab your pop corn, Michael Senator is coming.

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No..No..No..   just eliminate the sound guy..(or Gal)...  let's continue to keep the ball rolling.... First the Utility guys... then the boom ops... one man band is still too many people... get rid of the mixer too... I get it, it's a doc...but...

 

He want's to do everything a sound mixer does without the sound mixer...  OK.. do it...

 

Everyone... tell him exactly how to pull it off... why not? ;D

 

I think the responses that said  "hire a qualified mixer" were spot on...  Coming on a professional forum to ask how to pull off a rather complicated situation while eliminating or continuing to eliminate the people that reside on that forum is to me...a bit strange.

 

Maybe there is a Directors forum where you could ask other directors who go solo how they take care of their audio.

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No offense intended and I understand the sentiment, but the reality is that often the subject matter we are shooting is hostile and is no place for a large crew. Simply trying to make the most of the tools that are available and there are some interesting options out there.

 

Thanks,

 

Tucker

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I'll leave it to Jeff to decide who is and who isn't welcome to ask questions here.  I've never seen any point in not helping someone with simple advice who asked politely.  Just because this guy is working alone doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't know what a soundie does and doesn't maybe wish he could afford one for his gig, or that he maybe uses sound people when he can.  

 

philp

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Everyone is welcome to ask Philip.... ::)  but we really don't have to answer...  Let Rich provide the answers, that makes perfect sense, he sells the gear... but us?  why contribute to our own demise.  It's just a few more flakes of the already rolling snowball.. I am sorry I see it that way, but I do..  I will help our side of the fence all day long, and I always have... But I have my limits.

 

I don't think he is overly concerned about rule 13... but maybe... LOL   But it sounds like he cares enough to get together all the gear and ask questions... Kudos for that at least...

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A ZFR for the talent and an ERX to jam the camera will do the Job for you. The ZFR will wirelessly Jam the ERX so you will Have TC on the camera that matches the ZFR. 

 

There are many ways to do what you want. I would recommend you get back with Pro Sound for the best solution for you.

 

Glenn

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Sorry that a question asked of professional users generated so much hostility. No one suggested the end of sound people, rather, I simply stated how I work. I often shoot in situation and places where a sound guy isn't possible. At the same time, I'm simply trying to to get realistic overview of how to incorporate new tools into my arsenal. My goal isn't any different than anyone else making films: to get the best images and sound in a given situation. If I was shooting a narrative feature, I would hire a DP and a focus puller, but I'm not. Would it be nice to always have a mixer next to me focused on one thing? Sure, especially on those days when I miss something, however, if tools like Neverclip can save those takes, it makes sense to ask around and see how practical they are. Same goes for things like the ZFR. How many times do I wish I had a recorder on someone during a shoot. How many great moments have I missed?

 

I get where people are coming from--the times they are a changing--and everyone has felt the bite of accessible technology, whether that is guys with little cameras outbidding "pro" cameras or guys with a copy of Resolve grading movies in their home offices. In all sectors, unbelievable technology  is coming out that changes the very nature of production. Should guys with Tyler rigs be scared of amateur drone pilots flying 5Ds? Maybe but probably not.

 

At the end of the day, however, what I do doesn't infringe on anyone elses space or work and I'm simply trying to acquire the best material possible with the tools and technology I can reasonably manage.

 

Glen, thanks for the clarification, I will check with Prosound and see what could make sense. Might need to rent something with Zaxnet to better understand the limitations.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

Tucker

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I'll leave it to Jeff to decide who is and who isn't welcome to ask questions here.  I've never seen any point in not helping someone with simple advice who asked politely.  Just because this guy is working alone doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't know what a soundie does and doesn't maybe wish he could afford one for his gig, or that he maybe uses sound people when he can.  

 

philp

Appreciate the understanding. Didn't intend to offend anyone here. It's like I pulled up on a Vespa at a biker bar.

 

I love working with sound people as it is a huge relief to know that someone else is focused on that one thing and one thing only. However, it simply isn't possible most of the time with what we do. It's a little presumptious of some on here to automatically assume that I don't get the value of good sound. On the contrary, I'm obsessed with doing the best work possible in any given situation. That could mean a really smart on-camera solution from Ambient or a recorder from Zaxcom that can change the way I work.

 

Knowledge is a good thing. It's also evident that the more users communicate, the more manufacturers understand what the needs in the field are. 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Tucker

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I started in the sound biz at a time when it was very very hard to get good info on how to do the work, the equipment was far more esoteric and expensive (relatively) and mentors were very few or non-existent if you didn't work in LA or NYC.  I got a lot of cold shoulders from the pro soundmen of the day, and that made an impression on me.  I guess I decided back then that there wasn't anything I know that was so important or enabling somehow that I shouldn't share it if someone asks.  The OP had already decided how he was going to shoot his project--us refusing him advice will not change that, and may well make him more determined to never use a soundie even if could afford to.  So I don't get the point of the dismissive attitude, get over yourselves.

 

philp

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I started in the sound biz at a time when it was very very hard to get good info on how to do the work, the equipment was far more esoteric and expensive (relatively) and mentors were very few or non-existent if you didn't work in LA or NYC.  I got a lot of cold shoulders from the pro soundmen of the day, and that made an impression on me.  I guess I decided back then that there wasn't anything I know that was so important or enabling somehow that I shouldn't share it if someone asks.  The OP had already decided how he was going to shoot his project--us refusing him advice will not change that, and may well make him more determined to never use a soundie even if could afford to.  So I don't get the point of the dismissive attitude, get over yourselves.

 

philp

Appreciate your thoughts. I'm sure it was totally different world when you got started and much more rarified with many more barriers to access. I started shooting when Hi-8 cameras came out. At the time, it was unthinkable that a "nonprofessional" could shoot usable footage for broadcast but within a few years small cameras were being used where Betacams couldn't go. Fast forward ten years and DV cameras changed everything. You could make a film anywhere (and we did). My first feature film was shot on DV and blown up to 35mm. Today a $1600 camera body can be used to shoot a feature that can then be graded with free software and output on the desktop to a DCP. I don't feel threatened, I feel empowered. Likewise, tools like Neverclip are going to radically change what is possible in the world we work in, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to hire a soundguy when I'm shooting in New York and I need to wire a room. In the meantime, fully intend to improve my capabilities and understanding.

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I started in the sound biz at a time when it was very very hard to get good info on how to do the work, the equipment was far more esoteric and expensive (relatively) and mentors were very few or non-existent if you didn't work in LA or NYC.  I got a lot of cold shoulders from the pro soundmen of the day, and that made an impression on me.  I guess I decided back then that there wasn't anything I know that was so important or enabling somehow that I shouldn't share it if someone asks.  The OP had already decided how he was going to shoot his project--us refusing him advice will not change that, and may well make him more determined to never use a soundie even if could afford to.  So I don't get the point of the dismissive attitude, get over yourselves.

 

philp

 

Philip,

 

  I see the point as... "It is the Permissive attitude of many in our craft that has brought us to where are are today. Lower rates, reduced crew and no crew at all..." you must get that point. Maybe a little....

   Your cold shoulders right or wrong were most likely from those trying in some way to protect their turf, their income and their craft from an influx of what they perceived as competition. In some strange way, they were scared of you..I have always kind of understood that and never held it against anyone... That may not seem polite... or politically correct, but in a way it's natural... I am not going to let that "impression" somehow stick inside of me for years... I always got that point.

 

What will make Tucker determined to never use a Sound Professional is if he gears up, figures it all out and eliminates that job position. Poof... no more sound guy... (or Gal)

 

   Those who gave you "Cold Shoulders" probably thought that If everyone was given all the info,  willy nilly, all the training, all the secrets, then all across the country there would be thousands of sound persons.. charging lowered rates, reducing staffing positions and flooding the market. ???  

 

Soundtrane:  That's in fact what happened...  Tucker got both advice on his set up and a few comments on getting a professional...

 

Tucker:  I am sure you are a great guy, would use a sound person if you could..and mean well, but please, at least a little, try to see it just a bit from those "Cold shoulder guys" standpoint...  If you needed plumbing advice, probably best to ask Home depot... where you bought the supplies, and thats what you did... ;D  And, you got GREAT advice and training..  Could you imagine calling the plumber and asking exactly how to fix your problem?  I have an idea what they would probably say...  "I'm $65 an hour, do you need me or not..." LOL

  All that said,  asking couldn't hurt... and you did get some great advice here, from really nice people like Philip...

 

I wish you luck.... I ride a Vespa too... No hard feelings at all,  this is just conversation...

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Philip,

 

  I see the point as... "It is the Permissive attitude of many in our craft that has brought us to where are are today. Lower rates, reduced crew and no crew at all..." you must get that point. Maybe a little....

   Your cold shoulders right or wrong were most likely from those trying in some way to protect their turf, their income and their craft from an influx of what they perceived as competition. In some strange way, they were scared of you..I have always kind of understood that and never held it against anyone... That may not seem polite... or politically correct, but in a way it's natural... I am not going to let that "impression" somehow stick inside of me for years... I always got that point.

 

What will make Tucker determined to never use a Sound Professional is if he gears up, figures it all out and eliminates that job position. Poof... no more sound guy... (or Gal)

 

   Those who gave you "Cold Shoulders" probably thought that If everyone was given all the info,  willy nilly, all the training, all the secrets, then all across the country there would be thousands of sound persons.. charging lowered rates, reducing staffing positions and flooding the market. ???  

 

Soundtrane:  That's in fact what happened...  Tucker got both advice on his set up and a few comments on getting a professional...

 

Tucker:  I am sure you are a great guy, would use a sound person if you could..and mean well, but please, at least a little, try to see it just a bit from those "Cold shoulder guys" standpoint...  If you needed plumbing advice, probably best to ask Home depot... where you bought the supplies, and thats what you did... ;D  And, you got GREAT advice and training..  Could you imagine calling the plumber and asking exactly how to fix your problem?  I have an idea what they would probably say...  "I'm $65 an hour, do you need me or not..." LOL

  All that said,  asking couldn't hurt... and you did get some great advice here, from really nice people like Philip...

 

I wish you luck.... I ride a Vespa too... No hard feelings at all,  this is just conversation...

I understand all this, but I'm not saying that I'm a reality producer looking to automate production sound--and I'm sure there is one out there trying to do so--rather, I'm someone who oftens works solo looking for better solutions to difficult situations. Truth be told, documentary tends to be a "DIY" medium and always has been. Just ask Pennebaker or Maysles, who fifty years ago revolutionized the way that sound and picture are captured in the field by hacking existing tools.

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Hello Tucker,

 

I will be pragmatist / realist. Your documentary is your product. No one will go to buy or watch or take your product seriously if you are not take your product seriously. You need to understand; hiring a sound recordist and post production is an important investment. Can Lectrosonics make products without RF engineer? No.

 

Take seriously your product and audience will take seriously your product.

 

Otherwise we are talking about amateur "documentary" for your friends on Facebook or whatever similar "media".

 

Sorry; I had to wear my "bad mask", but I will take you seriously if you are going to find financial sources to hire a sound recordist.

 

Good luck and take care!

 

:)

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Vas: " Grab your pop corn, Michael Senator is coming. "

that's Senator Michaels!  sorry I'm late...

 

welcome, nomad: " I'm a doc director... could we record... for us.   I love working with sound people ... with what we do:blink:

OK on you being the director,  now, who is the "we/us"  ?

and what documentaries have you made??

 

 

it isn't about the arrows, it is about the archer.

 

" I often shoot in situation and places where a sound guy isn't possible. "

please tie that animal up in some other pasture.

 

" I'm simply trying to to get realistic overview of how to incorporate new tools into my arsenal. "

it isn't about the bullets, it is about the marksman.

Eng: " Best to continue talking to Prosound.. "  and maybe get in direct contact with Zaxcom, too

 

AFMY: " What will make Tucker determined to never use a Sound Professional is if he gears up, figures it all out and eliminates that job position. Poof... no more sound guy... (or Gal) "

that's OK, as I don't think any of us would really want to work for him... and at the rates he would offer us...

 

please note:  I'm not saying he should not be a one person band (thus: "us") and it is clear that a lot of material is made in such a manner; what does raise some hackles is asking us to give away our secrets, like naming that microphone that we never mention to outsiders.

Edited by studiomprd
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