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Yowza...have I fucking missed this joint !!!

 

I have two assumptions:

 

1- "Veterans" don't post their rate, because it's either Union, and therefore available open source, or there is still this "old school" (not our very own and venerable eponym obviously) mentality that working in movies is this hyper-sought after and prestigious opportunity that shouldn't let just any old riff-raff in.

 

2- "Newbies" don't post their rates because they don't want to appear naive, ignorant, and then also be raked across the coals by the veterans for putting mixers on the street with their sinister "job stealing".

 

I for one have had my raking here on occasion, and have only grown from it.

 

While Ragon"s elephant is still running amok within the thread, I commend those who at least posted what they charge and why. And now let me put my head on the proverbial chopping block:

 

Last year I worked with the same production company on two different Reality shows for two different networks:

Both shows had identical workflows so I had the same kit on both:

 

SD 633

(4) Lectro 411a plus boom (talent wireless)

(1) Lectro SRb, and (2) SMQV (stereo hop)

(1) UM400 and (2) Lectro R1a (return monitor and producer IFB)

 

What I got was:

500/12 labor

wait for it...........

275/day kit

 

That is me "giving away" a shit-load of equipment, right ?

-Well, they gave me 80K of work last year, so I factored that in.

-This is a production company that is growing, and has snagged increasingly bigger projects, and my rate has grown with them.

-I bumped them 50/day during negotiations, so I appreciated that they listened to me.

-My "usual suspect", with whom I have done business since my graduation from grad school in 2010, gave me 25% off a 3-day week for my rental. And they did this PRECISELY because I explained the situation with my negotiations with production. They even gave me MORE than what I had asked, stating, "Nah man, you gotta make some money off your kit fee". These guys are fucking princes, and my loyalty is theirs and theirs alone.

 

So...like Senor Miramontes, some of us "newer" sound peeps are fighting our way through what one venerable JW alum calls "the rougher surf"...we're not yet into the calmer waters of the industry where unions, and a stronger institutional culture offer a better vantage.

We're chopping through Reality, web series, so-called "pilots" that really aren't, web commercials, web interstitals, indie projects, and those damned classmates with their Magnum Opus.

 

Steering this thread to the OP is about as quick as steering a super-tanker. If you chastise or complain about my "low" rate...post yours.

 

Missed you curmudgeonly buggers !

best

Steven

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Okay guys im trying to restructure my rates now that I have updated gear. Let me know your feedback. Let me know if I am low balling the LA market or not. Dont want to undercut anyone but at this current time in my life this is usually the range I come across and rate that I can negotiate. I want to start sending a breakdown to some of my clients so they can better understand what they are paying for. But want to get some feedback on my breakdown to make sure that I am charging a reasonable rate but not shooting myself in the foot.

Thanks fam!

 

LABOR: $500/10
SINGLE SYSTEM KIT: $250/day
Includes: 

  • mixer/recorder 
  • boom
  • (2) wireless
  • (2) ERX2TCD IFB/Scratch Track/Lokit Box
Additional kit available a la cart: 
  • Additional wireless: $50/day
  • ERX2TCD IFB/Scratch Track/Lokit Box: $30/day
  • Zaxcom wireless hop system: $100/day
  • Timecode Slate: $50/day
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Okay guys im trying to restructure my rates now that I have updated gear. Let me know your feedback. Let me know if I am low balling the LA market or not. Dont want to undercut anyone but at this current time in my life this is usually the range I come across and rate that I can negotiate. I want to start sending a breakdown to some of my clients so they can better understand what they are paying for. But want to get some feedback on my breakdown to make sure that I am charging a reasonable rate but not shooting myself in the foot.

Thanks fam!

 

LABOR: $500/10

SINGLE SYSTEM KIT: $250/day

Includes: 

  • mixer/recorder 
  • boom
  • (2) wireless
  • (2) ERX2TCD IFB/Scratch Track/Lokit Box
Additional kit available a la cart: 

  • Additional wireless: $50/day
  • ERX2TCD IFB/Scratch Track/Lokit Box: $30/day
  • Zaxcom wireless hop system: $100/day
  • Timecode Slate: $50/day

 

 

Input:

  

"Single system" means the sound is sent to camera and you don't record, but in your basic package you've indicated it includes a recorder. 

  

A "Lockit Box" is a device made by Ambient that supplies time code and may include a Genlock sync signal.  Even though some people erroneously use "Lockit" as a generic term, it would be better to say "Scratch Track/Time Code"

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Input:

"Single system" means the sound is sent to camera and you don't record, but in your basic package you've indicated it includes a recorder.

A "Lockit Box" is a device made by Ambient that supplies time code and may include a Genlock sync signal. Even though some people erroneously use "Lockit" as a generic term, it would be better to say "Scratch Track/Time Code"

Thanks sir for your feedback. This is what I need to tailor everything correctly, appreciate your time.

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Just my opinion:

At this point $50 seems too low for an extra "a la carte" rental for wireless (I charge $75, nowadays). If you're including them as part of a package a discount is expected, but if they're not willing to pony up ahead of time on a larger package, they need to pay closer to the going rental house rate, IMO.

While I'm cherry picking, I guess I'd also say that I think the $250/ day rate for that package is very generous if you're including a recorder--if it were a 552 or similar that's another story. With a new client I would lead with $350 for that package these days, which would leave you a little wiggle room to negotiate down if you were comfortable. Again these are my opinions, and are based on my experiences in NYC.

E.

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I've tried to keep my rate at $750-$850 a day for my market area (labor w/ 3 wires, boom, mixer/recorder, betso box, and slate). If producers say thats too high, then I started subtracting gear but the price never goes lower than $700. Timecode is always a must since I don't want post ever blaming sound.

 

I've started to avoid reality TV since they demand too much and don't pay enough for gear they request.

 

Anything lower than $700 for me is usually a favor to friends only. Otherwise, I tell them the same thing Jose says. "If they are cheaper than my rate, fly them in." 

 

One line that always seems to work is this one:

amateur.gif

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Ethan,

You did Morgan Spurlock's Inside Man...no ?

Excellent job.

Can you share what you charged without jeopardizing your clientele ?

Again,

Great job (especially when

youre getting kicked out !!!)

Best

Haha, thanks for the kind words. I get sent a screen grab about once a month when a friend or relative is catching up on old episodes and sees my little cameo as we're getting kicked out of Wal-Mart. Keep your eyes peeled for my next appearance in the third season's first episode about Robots and AI--this one is a little more intentional.

While I don't really feel comfortable sharing my exact rates, I can say we have been on 10-hour days in the range of what I have discussed here previously. As for kit rental, it's also generally in line with my previous post. I will say that as the shooting style of the show evolved we streamlined the gear I was sticking on the cameras, and I was able to "downgrade" from full "stereo" hops and a TC box to just ERX receivers, while keeping the rental cost to production generally the same. This also allowed me to add TC and scratch track to the occasional C and D cams and keep within the budget. That was a result of my wish to lighten the load on the camera operators, as well as to keep the rental more in line with evolving equipment rental prices. Since the budget for the show was not growing between seasons, this was a win-win-win for Sound, Camera, and Production, with smiles from post.

E.

edit: Aww...just realized I'm using my old Fusion rig in that photo...miss that ol' gal!

post-1656-0-88532700-1424073308_thumb.jp

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+1 Jose Frias

+1 Solid

thanks for posting.

I'm in that ballpark, too. 

And yes, every job is a fresh negotiation.

And yes, I may/usually charge more when adding above the standard pkg:  mixer/recorder, 1 boom, 2 lavs, up to 2 cameras.

I do a lot of eng sports tv - docs, features, shows....

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For those of you posting your rates, do you have them linked off your main site, or do you send the link to the potential client when the conversation gets to that point? I definitely like the idea of clearly listing what "basic kit" or "reality kit" is and terms and whatever else so everyone is on the same page.

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For those of you posting your rates, do you have them linked off your main site, or do you send the link to the potential client when the conversation gets to that point? I definitely like the idea of clearly listing what "basic kit" or "reality kit" is and terms and whatever else so everyone is on the same page.

 

I don't have it publicly available on my site, but do have it as a PDF file stored in my server that I send to potential clients immediately as a URL when the conversation gets to that point. I've contemplated on just posting it publicly on my site, but I've had reservations about doing so.

 

I kinda like my conversations with clients to begin with what the project is, what is expected of sound/me and what I can/will deliver, and once we are all in the same page, delineate what it will cost to achieve it. Having the client to navigate through my rate sheet without that conversation first can be overkill, because many times they don't even know themselves what they want or need. If I can talk to them first, I can at least make recommendations that will ease the workflow and be efficient, all while trying to achieve the best sound possible. If they are convinced that what I'm offering is what they want/need, then they are open to paying the price it costs to achieve it. At least that's what I'm thinking. I'm all ears if anyone has a different opinion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

i don't like posting rates publicly … like jose said i like to speak with clients first and not be initially dismissed due to a posted rate … or post a rate that may possibly put other mixers in other markets (or my own) in jeopardy of getting what they want & deserve ...

 

that said i usually quote an hourly rate between $55 to $65 per hour for the call … then once i find out if production works on a 10 or 12 hour day then i make clear that my guaranty is for that number of hours with 1.5x rate after, on some 12hr calls i specify 2x rate after 16hr

 

my kit rental usually starts at $250 (mixer + boom + rf lav) … $50 for talent mic & hop kits … $25 per ifb & lockit … $35 slate … add $100 for recorder option to mixer …. plus i include expendables (batteries, tape, so on) which is always good to remind clients of … sometimes i mix and match a lil depending on the job and client, some of my regular clients get a lil better rate i.e. $250 for a sit down interview with just a boom + mixer recorder combo … as it's been said … "it depends"

 

i do keep some basic notes / docs /pdf on my phone & computer so i can cut and paste and forward to clients quickly so i don't have to draft something up every time i get a call & a client needs a quick quote

 

of course the above kit rates are based on a package deal where i am also working on site with the kit … if i'm just renting gear and not working i charge more … unless it's to fellow mixers...

 

i feel if anyone is ever unsure of what to charge for gear just go on line to the "usual suspects" to see what they charge, then charge a lil less on your daily rental so you can be competitive to a client who is web shopping for rates…i think most mixers here would be happy with getting those daily rates … of course you probably don't want to compete with the "3 day" weekly rates, but you should be prepared to match if need be because a budget conscious client will likely ask you to… and hopefully getting a weeks worth of hours on top of the kit will make it worth it and maybe even establish a repeat client

 

i do really wish the rates in the business were more uniform, especially when it comes to kits … i feel like i've turned down at least a dozen projects this year already where clients wanted me all in for $700 on a 12hr day with kit (mixer/recorder + at least 4 talent mic + multiple hops +ifb + sync)

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...i do really wish the rates in the business were more uniform, especially when it comes to kits … i feel like i've turned down at least a dozen projects this year already where clients wanted me all in for $700 on a 12hr day with kit (mixer/recorder + at least 4 talent mic + multiple hops +ifb + sync)

Perhaps this thread will spur that "uniformity" along - hopefully in an upward direction. The race to the bottom could use a detour.

~tt

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't have it publicly available on my site, but do have it as a PDF file stored in my server that I send to potential clients immediately as a URL when the conversation gets to that point. I've contemplated on just posting it publicly on my site, but I've had reservations about doing so.

 

I kinda like my conversations with clients to begin with what the project is, what is expected of sound/me and what I can/will deliver, and once we are all in the same page, delineate what it will cost to achieve it. Having the client to navigate through my rate sheet without that conversation first can be overkill, because many times they don't even know themselves what they want or need. If I can talk to them first, I can at least make recommendations that will ease the workflow and be efficient, all while trying to achieve the best sound possible. If they are convinced that what I'm offering is what they want/need, then they are open to paying the price it costs to achieve it. At least that's what I'm thinking. I'm all ears if anyone has a different opinion.

I agree with this, Jose. I think the rate card being public could scare away potential clients you could otherwise reel in with a proper discussion of their needs and budget. Better to determine what your fellow market mixers are doing and be in the ballpark, then tailor your quote specifically to the job in question. As you do.

Great discussion!

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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 year later...

Hi and I am sorry to disappoint you all but rate depends on the project and I don't mean how big the budget but what feeling you get from working on it. So far I am happy that before money I choose fun pleasure and more than that I do enjoy it when working. Regarding the money some are more lucky than the others and have connections I don't know a single producer who won't go for cheaper which not always means worst. And yes I will bring everything that I need on set without a doubt as it is me who is doing the job and I want to feel good at the end of the day. May be it is about the lifestyle that we live when speaking about money. I truely doubt that the pay is the

most important drive when doing what you love.

 

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Reading through this old thread brought up a thought - do you guys give productions a 3-day week on kit rental as a matter of course, or only if a producer asks, or never? My jobs are usually one or two day shoots so this hasn't come up for me personally yet but it would be cool to know what you guys do. 

-Mike

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As a producer for some 4 decades now and as a DP who works a lot in third world countries where I bring my own gear and person - often someone talented in several areas, and now based in Atlanta with a booming industry, a few observations:

first, and not been mentioned, I've found over the years that you get what you pay for. If I beat someone up on their rate, I get about that percentage back. I've learned to either pay someone what they think they're worth, or find someone else if the price is too high. Here in Atlanta rates are pretty standard.

Second - with an abundance of people in the industry looking for work, my clients, networks and agencies, expect and get a lot but pay very little, and have done so so for so long that this is the new normal. Rates for a DP with a decent camera is around $1,500/day. Like many, I am a nut about gear, my camera rig costs close to $100K - often more than is required, but I like making good pictures. Most audio guys I hire bring the absolute best gear and TC widgets and knowledge, but the market simply doesn't support getting back what you've brought to the table in equipment.

Longer projects and PSA's are different, but we're all having to adapt to an industry where our experience and pride in what we do is exploited as a general policy. I was lucky enough to be in the commercial end during the 80's when you felt a partner in work and were paid accordingly. I am working today for about half what I was twenty years ago. Such is life. I greatly appreciate the level of craft and attitude most crew bring to work, regardless of the budget, and that's one of the best things about this industry.

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You say "you get what you pay for", and then say that as an experienced DP with credits you get $1500/day with a camera package.  I say "you don't ask you don't get".   I assume that your soundies get commensurately less than the rate you mention, with their gear (which nowadays often costs as much or more than a basic camera package).   So what's the future in this?  It seems to me that you admit that the return is not keeping up with the investment, so all you guys are digging yourselves into holes while working as much as you can?  There's only one answer I know of, unless you are supported by Other Money: you have to hold a line on your rates that makes sense for what it costs to do business.  Many of us (me included) have learned this lesson the hard way, esp once we started families.   There are lots of client people who either really or willfully misunderstand what it takes to do a job well; some of them can't see the diffs, some of them don't care and a lot of them are less than truthful about what they actually know.   In the end you have to do the math for yourself, but at the rate you mention the cost of living and keeping up with the endless new-camera-go-round would not pencil out where I live.

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Hi and I am sorry to disappoint you all but rate depends on the project and I don't mean how big the budget but what feeling you get from working on it. So far I am happy that before money I choose fun pleasure and more than that I do enjoy it when working.

This may hold true for you, but since it sounds like you are making a universal statement, I'd say it's not true.
My rate does depend on the project's budget, as well as my experience.
In practice, I don't ask about the project's budget. I quote my standard rate (somehat hire at the beginning of negotiations), and then they can say, that it's low-budget and sorry, but they can't pay that. Then I can consider taking on the project anyway, based on various considerations, or leave it. Fun is not a prime consideration for me. I consider my job as a whole as fun, but the individual jobs are less important to me. I live in a predominantly TV market, so many of the projects are not great, but fun anyway. But just this year I had the choice between a TV movie with 23 days, or two (shot in one block) with 49 days. The shorter one was the more exciting project, with an awesome cast and crew, but guess which one I chose. The longer one has its fun, too, of course, but more subdued perhaps. But with a familiy to support and a house to pay off, I can't afford to chose fun over money.

But like I said, for me the job itself defines the fun, not the project. In fact, for the sound department, the project itself perhaps matters less than for other departments, as we will do whatever to get the sound we need. I use the same mic on a high budget TV movie as I would on a low budget doco
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1 hour ago, Constantin said:


This may hold true for you, but since it sounds like you are making a universal statement, I'd say it's not true.
My rate does depend on the project's budget, as well as my experience.
In practice, I don't ask about the project's budget. I quote my standard rate (somehat hire at the beginning of negotiations), and then they can say, that it's low-budget and sorry, but they can't pay that. Then I can consider taking on the project anyway, based on various considerations, or leave it. Fun is not a prime consideration for me. I consider my job as a whole as fun, but the individual jobs are less important to me. I live in a predominantly TV market, so many of the projects are not great, but fun anyway. But just this year I had the choice between a TV movie with 23 days, or two (shot in one block) with 49 days. The shorter one was the more exciting project, with an awesome cast and crew, but guess which one I chose. The longer one has its fun, too, of course, but more subdued perhaps. But with a familiy to support and a house to pay off, I can't afford to chose fun over money.

But like I said, for me the job itself defines the fun, not the project. In fact, for the sound department, the project itself perhaps matters less than for other departments, as we will do whatever to get the sound we need. I use the same mic on a high budget TV movie as I would on a low budget doco

+1

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MobileMike, In LA and I'd like to think NYC, there is no such thing as a 3 day week for short term work. A day is a day for labor and gear. TV in LA is also based on a week, not a 3 day week. I only work upper end commercials so I assume there are people who give it away in other arenas but I'd advise you not to for your own good as well as your sisters and brothers in the craft.

CrewC

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