Jump to content

off-camera dialogue in the Mix track


radarblaster

Recommended Posts

recent critiques of my Mix track have knocked me down. Asst. Editors and Editors noting that the off-camera is unusable, meaning they have to go to ISO tracks to do "more work". I'm providing very good dialogue for the on-camera, sometimes letting the off-camera lie on an Iso so I can focus on the "on-camera". These are not overlapping dialogue situations. When did putting all dialogue, on or off-camera became the norm for the Mix track? It makes they're job easier to cut picture in I suppose, but the Sound Mix is subject to phasing mics, missed on-camera cues(especially when mixing 5-7 mics at a time) and 2nd Boom Issues (reflections on-camera, introduction of camera noise when actor lining up for a closeup off-camera). I feel the editors pain but come to the set, and stop being lazy. Anyone else have this issue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"It makes they're job easier to cut picture in I suppose" it depends on how they are cutting the scene. Having the off camera in the mix may actually require more "work" (in quotes because it is ALL work, it's the work that editors do, right?) if they follow classic cutting pattern. Assuming it is not an overlap situation, and even if it is, as long as you have the off camera recorded on an iso (of course being aware of all the not so nice things that happen when an actor is off camera as you note), you have done a proper job. The only exception, I can imagine, is if a decision has been made in advance that you aren't even going to shoot an on camera cut for the off camera person. Even then, as long as you have recorded it, no need to put it in the mix. If it's easy and you can make it sound decent, go ahead and do it --- it can be helpful in judging on camera performance at times to hear it as if it has already been edited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that is a somewhat strange request.  Actors reading off camera often don't put out like they do in front of the camera, they may be standing over by a noisy camera or HMI ballast or and open door etc.  It seems to me that actors assume that in reading "the other side" of a scene their dialog isn't likely to be used.   I know the old doctrine of audio matching picture perspective is sort of out the window now, but this kind of thing is another deal entirely.  Even a cooperative G+E crew can't be expected to make the off-camera part of the set as sound-friendly as what's in the shot at the moment.  I guess these editors are expecting an all-wires all the time 360 degree free fire zone for audio, but that's not how it usually works out on the set.  I think they are being a little over-expedient (ie lazy).

 

philp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Philip.  I'm noticing lazy editors and post guys more and more these days. Usually the younger ones.  My guess is they really don't know what actually happens on the set and how many rabbits we have to pull out of our hats just to get on screen dialog. AND HEAVEN FORBID if they have to do anything more then push a button to sync audio to picture... it's like the end of the world to them.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JW & PP & mirror are correct about our job and theirs. We make our decisions on the day of production in a fluid and dynamic environment as we weigh so many factors that are not apparent in a given frame of picture. I find it remarkable how much we get right shot per shot over the course of any given show. If Post can do our jobs better, then they should. In the meantime I'll reserve the right to tell them how to do their jobs better.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I should amend what I said above to add that if this is an ongoing show or a long job like a feature then the rules of engagement regarding this sort of thing are best worked out in advance: ie Post doesn't ask (and negotiate) in advance, Post doesn't get.   When I was a (very inexperienced) audio supervisor on some verite series many years ago I learned very quickly to not second guess "the guy on the ground".   Some basic guidelines yes but after that you have to let them do the work as best they see fit.  I've had the shoe on the other foot too, being in the set in the middle of the mosh and getting a clueless complaint call from an editor far away.   A real morale booster….

 

philp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi radar, haven't heard much from you in 3 years: " Anyone else have this issue "

yes, of course.

" When did putting all dialogue, on or off-camera became the norm for the Mix track? "

back in the last millennium*...

since they started referring to it as "mix track",

particularly since multi-tracking became prevalent;

I think you have it backwards...our job as Production Sound Mixers  is to mix the production sound,  and the ISO tracks are the backup plan so post can save our butt's when we fail in dealing with the frequently unreasonable expectations of production......

 

true, as PP says: " Actors reading off camera often don't put out like they do in front of the camera, they may be standing over by a noisy camera or HMI ballast or and open door etc. ", so a lot of the older style (protect the only track) still comes into play, and of course there is a lot of "it depends", and whenever possible, " the rules of engagement regarding this sort of thing are best worked out in advance: "

 

* and I have many memories of working on major (like: studio) projects, on the lots, going crazy to get all the "off-camera" because the editors wanted it.

Edited by studiomprd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I have heard from editors regarding off camera dialogue is that while they won't keep the off-camera lines in their edit, it apparently saves them time when doing the rough edit when they can see the wave forms of the off camera lines in the timeline, hence get a quick overlook of the duration. So I effectively fade in the off actors' lav during their first word and fade down before the sentence is over soas not to be in danger of overlapping the on camera dialogue.

So whether that off lav is rustly or the dialogue is delivered poorly doesnt really matteras long as there's something they can "see". Most of my work is on narrative tv series so time efficient workflows are crucial and of course I try to minimize post's workload where I can. If they asked me to get perfectly usable off camera dialogue all the time however, I would suggest them to hire a second boom op all the time,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll record off camera in the mix if performance is consistent and there are noise issues making clean dialog a problem. I think it helps the editor know the off-camera dialog is available to fix issues with on camera dialog, as opposed to having to check the ISOs. But if I record one side of the scene on the boom, and I have the dialog, I typically don't continue to record it, for the reasons noted by others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

another possible consideration:

the executive watching dailies, hearing only a mix track, and noting: I don't hear the other guy; get a new mixer!

Which brings us back to the question of another thread long ago:

Are we mixing for dailies or for audio post?

The answer, as usual, would be: It Depends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also,the editors could be inexperienced.That's what it sounds like to me.There is a lot of Bozos out there and of course you never endanger your on cam. dial.----that's where the money is.

 

                                                                                              J.D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I record off camera dialog with a second boom almost all the time. I find it helps the folks down the line in post for cadence of cut, gives more for post to use as an ADR source of material without having to bring an actor back, doesn't sound as bad as a wire, and makes us a set presence with 2 booms so the re-rate discussion NEVER happens.

So maybe the off camera isn't perfect on the technical or performance front but I mix off camera all the time unless it's specially problematic or is massively horrible sounding.

Why be so lazy about it? Maybe we use it, maybe we don't. I think it ultimately helps the end product on my shows and if it seems to be helpful why would I not actually mix the off camera? Maybe we are juggling too much at times and we let it go for a take or two but generally there isn't so much to do that makes booming the off camera problematic.

Everyone likes to give lip service to mixing here, well, why is it such a burden to mix it in? Why leave the off camera to a wire that now sounds tighter than the mic of the person who is on camera?

Maybe it's a TV vs film thing here but I don't see how it helps to blankly say, "I don't record off camera dialog". 

It just comes across as lazy from how I work to not be doing or maybe someone needs to be checking up on the world on their phone. I'm not understanding this debate here.

 

Of course, if it's a real problem I would never demand the off camera to be boomed but generally it isn't so why forgo this useful element?

 

Scott Harber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do it for the same reasons as Scott. I, too, have been a bit confused by the topic as it seems like a no brainer most if the time. In addition to what Scott has said, I like it for protecting overlaps. Even if a scene plays clean and the director doesn't want them to overlap, it's usually so easy to cover the off camera person just in case the actors get caught up in it and that take becomes the preferred one. I'd much rather go to a director and say we can play the overlap to sound good, but do they want to keep it clean for editorial. Playing 2 sticks lets me do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dittos Scott and Josh. We try to record the off camera also on a boom when possible. I have always thought it was a second chance at the performance and the lines. In comedies it is very important because of all the ad-lib that may not have been captured on camera. I have always thought it gave post a chance if they needed a word or line that there may have been issues with when it was on camera. It is always about protecting the performance and it helps make you a "defender of dialogue".

 

 

Whit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to make it clear I am not saying to add the off camera dialogue in your mix unless it is needed for whatever the circumstances maybe. Having the off camera 2nd boom track can be very helpful for the reasons I have already stated. It gives post options if they are needed. We always try to make sure our off camera tracks match the on camera tracks so it will be useful to post. 

 

The quote "defenders of dialogue" I have to give to Kevin Smith. When Doug and I worked with him on Clerks 2, that was the nickname that he gave our department. I always liked it.

 

 

Whit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RVD after thinking about it I have only had one request from a picture editor to add all of the off camera into the mix. That was 2 years ago and they had their reasons for this. There was a time and deadline issue with the the project and the editor did not want to have to dig through all of the tracks for their cut. It was a comedy where there was a lot of variations on performances on and off camera. I will have to admit I was not that happy about it but we gave the picture department what they wanted and it sharpened my mixing skills by doing this everyday. All of the elements were there on all of the tracks and sound post was very happy with our work regardless of having all the dialogue on camera and off in the mix track. 

 

No I'm not up early... just into nights this week!

 

Whit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My kind of posts here @jwsound, plenty of topic drift. I have no idea the timeline of  radarblaster and post editorial but I find it odd that they would after the fact question him about his decisions regarding his mix. This work flow should of been established well before the shoot by them if they had a preference. Seems as if he had iso tracks for them to work with so I see very little problem other than the way it seems to have been handled. 

As for work flows and decisions made on the day, I trust a pro mixer to do the right thing 99% of the time. Off camera dialog is seldom what on camera acting is and it will all most never be used because it was not on camera and actors do it different when they aren't filmed. There are plenty of times when it is a good idea to match mics and do a good mix of on & off camera dialog just as there are times it is a bad idea.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The on/off camera consideration changes a bit when you get into handheld and or multicam shows.  When anyone "could" be on camera at any momemt, and the director has asked the actors to be "always on".  Then you are mixing a scene, not what one camera sees.  Editors that are primarily used to this kind of production, as opposed to more traditional single camera workflows, I find are likely to expect to hear the whole scene in most every take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems as though the trend I have seen on feature sets lately is multiple cameras, often with radically different framing. At this point, everybody gets a wire and my boom op gets as close as he can. Everything goes into a scratch mix (it is even labeled that way in the Deva) and all mics go to isos. If they insist on shooting this way, this is what I can do. Yes, the project will have to be remixed from fade in to fade out, but I am merely playing the hand you have dealt me. When I have rolled on projects with this workflow, no one complains about the mix in that it gets thrown out the window after picture is locked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...