Michael Miramontes Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I started this thread as a response to the "" thread posted in this same General Discussion topic. I believe that a possible solution to increasing rates across the board is by educating mixers on basic selling strategies so that they can up-sell their professional services and thus justify why they can't work for cheap. So, please share any tips you may have to help others tackle that initial call from the Producer. I'll go first: "The first one to talk loses". This is an old saying taught in basic sales training courses. I can go on and on about this but thankfully a google search resulted with a blog post that explains this best. I've had many calls from Producers first asking me if I'm available on a certain date and then what my rate is. I then turn the conversation around by not commenting on my availability or rates until I first ask what the job entails followed by what his/her budget is. By allowing the Producer to answer these two questions I'll be able to determine if I'm interested in the project, if I'm right for the job, if it's going to be a nightmare, what their sound needs are (not to be confused with what they think their sound needs are), and if their budget is realistic. If all sounds well then I close the deal. If the rate is poor then I begin negotiating or I leave my calendar open for the next Producer who calls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ok..when/how does the "up-selling" occur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I personally don't want to "Up sell". I want to simply charge the Producer a fair rate for the gear that is used... The first time a quote is given... Ask what is required, then give them a price... without mentioning a "package" then "up selling" after the fact. Big difference.. Michaels way to handle it... above post.... I believe is correct protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 MM: " determine if I'm interested in the project, if I'm right for the job, if it's going to be a nightmare, what their sound needs are (not to be confused with what they think their sound needs are), and if their budget is realistic. " the best salespersons are good listeners. I agree with Michael here, and frankly also with AFMY, so... RR: " when/how does the "up-selling" occur? " there is no need for upselling. I pretty much follow MM's procedure (quoted), and tell them my price, then: " If all sounds well then I close the deal. If the rate is poor then I may begin negotiating or I leave my calendar open for the next Producer who calls." not much negotiating, though, as if they are set on their unrealistic expectations, then I don't really want to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Not applicable to freelance production sound, perhaps... I used to up-sell a lot, when I was working for a big post (and some shooting) house. The account exec would have me come to the bid meeting, as representing the sound department. I'd get excited about some creative sound-based wrinkle we could add, and get the client excited too... even though it wasn't in the spec. AE would pick up the ball, modify the spec, and boom: not only did we get more bucks, but it also became a differentiator between us and other houses. Sometimes it would add another person to the shoot, more often it would add a half day of wild sound gathering, almost always it would add more hours to audio post. And result in a better project for the client. I don't do that any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 DrJR: " I'd get excited about some creative sound-based wrinkle we could add, and get the client excited too... even though it wasn't in the spec " that doesn't work with the bottom feeding producers we are discussing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I don't that phone call was upselling. The OP was acting in a professional manner in asking what the job entailed and what the expectations were before quoting a price. Isn't this typical of how most independent crafts people work? I think it is more polite to do it this way than quote a price and then get into a discussion of if they need various extras and how much more they will cost. I've noticed that soundies who really do "upsell" in what I think of as the normal sense don't last long in my market. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 philip: " really do "upsell" " upsell = 'well for your price, I can bring my zoom on a boom, but for $100 more I'll bring my....' --whether it is really needed, or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Duff Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Maybe JWS could have a mentor type forum for up and coming mixers to discuss the current state of the work environment and other issues and ask advise without being judged by the same measure as you would judge someone with many years of experience. Experienced mixers could provide info and advise to help keep people on track and help keep the production sound business healthy as people come into it. For example Michael Miramontes OP is a great "how to bid a job 101" and the other topic of really cut to the chase of what people should be charging with hard numbers. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Actually the OP is "How to Up-Sell the Producer". But..that doesn't seem to be the net content...in fact quite the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 As a side note Michael, Never throw out the first number. I too also run though the questions to get a good idea of the production. Is this within my talents? Is it large or small? Do I have the gear for this, etc.. When it comes down to discussing the first number (as in price per day), I do everyhing I can to not commit to any quote first. I've made this mistake before, thrown out a rate, the client said OK, and then I was left woundering if the client may have gone higher or had a higher number in mind, and I just cut my own rate. Instead, once I get a grasp on the size of the production, I use this saying, "What is your budget for the sound department?" The reason is that ALL clients should always understand that the sound is a department. And that department could have multiple people and equipment needs, and that each areas should be addressed. By being able to ask that question, it also kind of cuts to the chase, and forces the client to dislose the rate they had in mind. Not sure if upsale is the right word here.. I perfer to 'reveal' each section needed for the sound department.. Like telling the client that they might need two boom ops.. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 As a side note Michael, Never throw out the first number. I too also run though the questions to get a good idea of the production. Is this within my talents? Is it large or small? Do I have the gear for this, etc.. When it comes down to discussing the first number (as in price per day), I do everyhing I can to not commit to any quote first. I've made this mistake before, thrown out a rate, the client said OK, and then I was left woundering if the client may have gone higher or had a higher number in mind, and I just cut my own rate. Instead, once I get a grasp on the size of the production, I use this saying, "What is your budget for the sound department?" The reason is that ALL clients should always understand that the sound is a department. And that department could have multiple people and equipment needs, and that each areas should be addressed. By being able to ask that question, it also kind of cuts to the chase, and forces the client to dislose the rate they had in mind. Not sure if upsale is the right word here.. I perfer to 'reveal' each section needed for the sound department.. Like telling the client that they might need two boom ops.. -Richard I like Richard's approach, and I've used this as well. One huge factor for me: my rate changes depending on conditions. If we have four or five location changes in one day, I'm doing a one-man band, there's a long commute to get there, and four or more wireless, that's a whole different situation from 2 people in an interview situation in one room. The discussion elsewhere about package rentals is a good one as well, since labor is one rate and the gear could be very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codyman Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 As a side note Michael, Never throw out the first number. This 100%. Let them throw out the first pitch to gauge what kind of numbers they are thinking of. You don't want to undervalue yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I use Richard's method to feel out what the ball park number is. If i feel it is on the low side, or the producer is being cheap/dishonest, I ask more questions to get a feel for the job and requirements. At that poiny I know ehat the cost is going to be, and if the proposed budget is realistic. At this point I can continue to negotiate or pass on the job. Like Marc, I try to factor in commute, location changes, etc to my labor. I think this is an important point to make to the producer so that they understand that it is an issue to be addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulluysavage Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I see something important about the difference in approach between selling/up-selling and "pay my rate." On the one hand, I can call attention to all the value I'm providing, on the other, I'm acting more like a bureaucrat. My tactics include saying things like, "you know what would make your life easier in post and save you money, wireless hops," and "the sound is really important to your project for X reasons. Having a real pro on this job will pay off for you, that's me." I am pretty sure this results in higher rates and more rentals for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 mulluy: " saying things like, "you know what would make your life easier in post and save you money, wireless hops," " that rarely works well with the bottom feeders who have a $$ amount set, and are not interested in much more than will you do it for my price; they may, however ask you to throw-in the hops... after all, they will make your job easier, and otherwise they are just sitting there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulluysavage Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 mulluy: " saying things like, "you know what would make your life easier in post and save you money, wireless hops," " that rarely works well with the bottom feeders who have a $$ amount set, and are not interested in much more than will you do it for my price; they may, however ask you to throw-in the hops... after all, they will make your job easier, and otherwise they are just sitting there... You can't get blood from a stone, true. We can start a how-to-draw-boundaries thread, which is another favorite of mine. You can milk a cash cow however, so let's grab the udders and squeeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 mulluy: " saying things like, "you know what would make your life easier in post and save you money, wireless hops," " that rarely works well with the bottom feeders who have a $$ amount set, and are not interested in much more than will you do it for my price; they may, however ask you to throw-in the hops... after all, they will make your job easier, and otherwise they are just sitting there... I've had the experience of production assistants calling me offering jobs.. Not sure why, but I'm assuming that a producer doesn't want to actually bother with the hiring process, or just doesn't value the sound department as much as the DP perhaps.. Once you start saying things like, "Your going to need Comtecs.." Which then results in the PA saying that we're going to have to go back to their producer to ask about this, and ask about the different price in mind. If they are really low budget, and don't value the sound department, you'll never hear back... Oh well. I think of it as a way to weed them out. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Borg: " Not sure why, but I'm assuming that a producer doesn't want to actually bother with the hiring process, or just doesn't value the sound department as much as the DP perhaps. " assuming is your problem: you are spending way too much time and energy on this, and by now you should have figured out that CL and Mandy are not the place to find quality DPS gigs. The low-no budget bottom feeder probably typically don't know better (but I'm not obsessing over it), and they have a dream full of unreasonable expectations, and worse, they want you to dream it with them, and for them. Producers (real producers) often make a lot of calls for crew (among other things)... real directors may too, and in many professional cases it is the UPM (or line producer) who calls, and really often, deluged with resumes of all sorts, from folks at all levels (BTW this applies to actors, too) they have someone call and pre-screen who the executive will actually speak with personally. In "real productions" they are weeding out the newbies, the wanna' bees, the under experienced, and not available. In the case the the CL Mandy folks, they are weeding out anyone who isn't available, or won't do the gig for their price. (yes, it is as simple as that!) again: The folks on the phone have a $$ amount set, and are not interested in any more than if you are available and will you do it for my price; they may, however ask you to throw-in the Comteks. and they will frequently tell you how important they believe getting good sound is...(so much for assuming!) grow up and deal with it... IOW get over it. Edited November 23, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Borg: " Not sure why, but I'm assuming that a producer doesn't want to actually bother with the hiring process, or just doesn't value the sound department as much as the DP perhaps. " grow up and deal with it... IOW get over it. Why.. exactly are you telling people (or me) to "grow up and deal with it", when they are simply just imparting their knowledge and experience on a topic again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 RR: " Why.. exactly " because you are in denial... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 RR: " Why.. exactly " because you are in denial... Why the fuck is that any of your business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Uh oh..... Munch...munch....munch.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Ok..when/how does the "up-selling" occur? Step#2: After they've advised you of their sound budget and you've uncovered their needs then this would be the time to "up-sell" or "negotiate" or "advise" or "whatever word you want to use since most people think up-selling is for used car salesman". If the budget is a bit low then this would be the time to reiterate their needs and advise how increasing their budget will help you help them meet their needs. (As a side note: I have a background in finance and currently own a Real Estate business. Most of the tips I'm sharing come from life experiences.) One of the most basic and best sales strategies I learned was the acronym W.I.I.F.M (what's in it for me). The best way I can explain it is that you should say things in a way so that the person you are convincing understands what's in it for them by agreeing with you. For Example here are two hypothetical conversations : Normal Response Producer: "Having a boom op isn't within our budget" Sound Mixer: "Since I don't have three hands I'll definitely need a boom op so I can focus on mixing" Producer: "I have a P.A. that won't be using one of his hands. Problem solved". Using a W.I.I.F.M type response Producer: "Having a boom op isn't within our budget" Sound Mixer: "Do you have a post-sound budget" Producer: "No, there isn't time for post-sound since this will be going to broadcast within two days" Sound Mixer: "So that I may provide you with a clean mix track you can use for broadcast I'll need to focus on mixing and making sure talents levels are excellent. It's difficult getting a proper mix track if I'm also swinging a boom around. It may be cheaper having a boom op then having someone scramble to mix my ISO tracks in time for broadcast" Producer: "Did you say cheaper? Ok, lets do it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 RR: " Why.. exactly " because you are in denial... Why the fuck is that any of your business? Hey guys, I'm sure you both know that personal fights are counter-productive to a thread that is trying to be helpful and informative, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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