Henchman Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 With a commanding system, the linearity can be affected by too hot a signal, or too low a signal. Any compression will likely affect frequencies differently, or be triggered by them in a manner that results in nonlinearity. Proper gain setting can be crucial with even the best of wireless systems.. Well, maybe that's one of the issues. I'm having to boost pretty much all of the production by at last 20db righ off the bat in this show. With the total gain being easily around. 30-40db. I measured the dialog, and the Level sits around -30 DB PEAK. Not even RMS. But peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Well, maybe that's one of the issues. I'm having to boost pretty much all of the production by at last 20db righ off the bat in this show. With the total gain being easily around. 30-40db. I measured the dialog, and the Level sits around -30 DB PEAK. Not even RMS. But peak. Yep, I think that's probably a strong clue right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Tell production to hire a professional prod. sound mixer----- -30db peaks----yikes ! J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Maybe the mixer was using iso attenuation on a NeverClip recorder and didn't mention it? Not a reason for the esses of course, but maybe the low levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 So another actor which cannot trainee her / his voice. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Tell production to hire a professional prod. sound mixer----- -30db peaks----yikes ! J.D. It is a professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, maybe that's one of the issues. I'm having to boost pretty much all of the production by at last 20db righ off the bat in this show. With the total gain being easily around. 30-40db. I measured the dialog, and the Level sits around -30 DB PEAK. Not even RMS. But peak. Are those the ISO's or the production mix track that are at that level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, maybe that's one of the issues. I'm having to boost pretty much all of the production by at last 20db righ off the bat in this show. With the total gain being easily around. 30-40db. I measured the dialog, and the Level sits around -30 DB PEAK. Not even RMS. But peak. I'm in shock that the editor didn't complain when the show was being cut together from dailies. This is much, much, much too low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm in shock that the editor didn't complain when the show was being cut together from dailies. This is much, much, much too low. I am surprised as well. And in response to another question, it's both lavs and boom that are that low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I am surprised as well. And in response to another question, it's both labs and boom that are that low. So it's the ISO's that are that low if I'm hearing you right. How's the mix track? Is it also that low? Is there a mix track or is it just a reference track where the mixer just shoves all the mics up on one track and doesn't really mix it? Is this a reality show or a scripted show? What I'm trying to get at is that a lot of the times production mixers are so busy making sure that the mix track is at the correct audio level that we don't have time to get into the recorder menus every take to adjust the ISO's to optimal level. The reasoning is that the ISO's are to be used as tracks to save a screw-up of the mix track and if the actor suddenly gets loud it's better to have the iso not distort. It's better to have soft ISO's then distorted ISO's. You can't ride ISO's during a take easily, you have to set them before hand and hope it's at a good middle ground level to serve the take. Perhaps that's why they are that low on your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Gee this is getting busy! Happy new year Brian! I'm just back from recording a concert in southern Italy and jet lagged! Regards mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 -30 to -40 is way too low...period... I don't know any "professional" mixers who deliver that normally.... One or two takes?...OK, but as a norm...NO. Your never too busy to adjust your ISOs at some point within a take or 3... I for one watch and can easily adjust on the fly... I don't know what they are doing, but that is just strange. If this has been going on for more than one production day, then someone should of put in an email or call to say "hey, your levels are lacking" "can you get them up a bit for us here in post" If everything has been screaming and yelling... maybe I get SOME concept of a -30 track, but for regular dialog, it's improper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I can't speak to other devices, but my Nomad makes monitoring tracks (visually) very easy. Looks like somebody just pulled a boner (or had too many breakfast beers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Please tell the PSM about your problems. Ask what type of wireless they are using, and what gain setting the transmitters are on typically (boom and lav). Ask if they observe limiters engaging regularly at any stage (transmitter, mixer, recorder). Ask why the levels are so low. I'd guess it's because limiters are engaging somewhere, preventing proper levels on mix and/or ISO tracks. Just because a mixer is a professional, it doesn't mean they haven't just bought new gear, or that nobody has ever told them their tracks are bad. I have sat in on many mix sessions with RRMs who tell me about issues with PSMs. Experienced ones too. But they routinely say that they just fix it and move on. The PSM will not learn if they are not told, and likely weren't properly trained to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm betting the problem involves older transmitters with a less sophisticated compander system than today's top picks. Mics with a prominent high freq peak, such as TRAMs, would increase the problem. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 We will be talking to the PSM for the next season. Because other than extreme low levels, everything else is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 If he/she don't feel safe, he/she can provide a normal mix and second mix; second mix will be lower 12 dB from the normal mix. This is happened and with isolated tracks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 We will be talking to the PSM for the next season. Because other than extreme low levels, everything else is fine. And the ess-ing issue, which may or may not be related to the low levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al mcguire Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I've been enjoying this thread because it reminds me of a discussion I had with a recording engineer the day my daughter was born. There comes a time in the birthing process where the nurses are prepping the mom to be and the dad is sent on his way with the instruction to come back in an hour. I went to the Pancake Pantry in Hillsboro village which was a few blocks from Vanderbilt University Hospital. Sitting in there was my recording engineer pal Gene Eichelberger who was getting breakfast after working all night mixing some ones record. He was bitching and moaning about "all the goddamn ESSES are tearing up" on the record he was mixing. Way too much sibilance. The truth is we have been dealing with sibilance since we started recording voices. What is an "S"? It is a sibilant consonant Sibilance is a manner of articulation of fricative and affricate consonants, made by directing a stream of air with the tongue towards the sharp edge of the teeth, which are held close together; a consonant that uses sibilance may be called a sibilant, or a strident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilance Stated another way it is a burst of high energy centered around 6k - 8k and a lot of our recording systems didn't deal with it well. The guys with pocket protectors back then called it SIDs short for Slew induced Distortion Slew-induced Distortion (SID, or sometimes: Slew-rate Induced Distortion) is caused when an amplifier or transducer is required to change output (or displacement), i.e. slew, faster than it is able to do so without error. At such times any other signals may suffer considerable gain distortion, leading to Intermodulation distortion.[1] Transient Intermodulation Distortion may involve some degree of SID and/or distortion due to peak compression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slew-induced_distortion How did we deal with it way back then ? We would put up a demo of 4 or 5 "vocal mics" aka U87, U67 tube, U47 tube Neumanns, Sennheiser 414 or MD 421, Shure SM7 or 58. We would find that some mics 'would be more forgiving than others in dealing with sibilance and that would be the choice. We would use a De-esser De-essing is any technique intended to reduce or eliminate excessive prominence of sibilant consonants, such as "s", "z" and "sh", in recordings of the human voice.[1] Excess sibilance can be caused by compression, microphone choice and technique, and even simply a singer's mouth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-essing What you soon learn is the difference between and "S" and a "TH" is the aforementioned sibilance. Too much de-essing turn and S into a TH and we had a lot of fun demonstrating it. We called it de-ething. What also worked was leaving the Compressor/Limiter out of the circuit. Or use the Compressor in a side chain where the high frequencies were filtered out of signal affecting the threshold. If you slam a high frequency transient into a Compressor it will gain a nasty edge that you will never remove. We found that mixing consoles that had discrete circuits fared better than IC chips. Neve's were better than MCI's. Disclaimer. I don't have an EE degree, and didn't learn electronics in the Military. I have and still do learn from those that did. Gained valuable information while observing mistakes, mine and others. I have been a part of the process of making vinyl phonograph records. NB: Never refer to any person having an excess of sibilance as " Big Essed" Gene Eichelberger DIscography http://www.allmusic.com/artist/gene-eichelberger-mn0000160958/credits Gene also recorded and mixed Neil Youngs Harvest record, most if the early Jimmy Buffet hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Yeah, am very surprised to hear that someone would be sending in tracks recorded that low, and not getting some instant grief from post. Hard to say what the exact issue could be without knowing more. The sibilance issue is always tough to deal with in production. In a studio situation, I would go with a large diaphragm mic, but they are rather difficult to use on anything except a Fisher (which I have in fact done). The show I'm doing right now has one actress who is extremely sibilant, and all we can do as fight for a close-up where I can use a different mike. Seldom get it though, so it just gets passed down the line for post to deal with[emoji19]. "I don't care what they're talking about, all I want is a nice fat recording". Harry Caul "The Conversation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 As some of you might now, I am a re-recording mixer. Do any of you know why some projects suffer from extreme explosive ess-es? When you see the waveform, the ess-eh can be as loud and louder than the rest of the dialog. Is there anything I can pass in to the location guy to prevent thus? This is a good thread. Thanks for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caio Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 What peak you guys usually seek? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Silberberg Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 As some of you might now, I am a re-recording mixer. Do any of you know why some projects suffer from extreme explosive ess-es? When you see the waveform, the ess-eh can be as loud and louder than the rest of the dialog. Is there anything I can pass in to the location guy to prevent thus? To the OP: Lots of tips posted here in how to deal with sibilants , but there's one other thing you can pass on to your location mixers/recordists and that would be an awareness of How bad is bad? Invite your location sound people into your studio and play examples of the problem and also solutions. (I'd love to get an invite to this kind of session.) A lot of location sound people don't really have any post experience, or if they do, like me , it was years ago. There's nothing like hearing it in the studio to create awareness of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 To the OP: Lots of tips posted here in how to deal with sibilants , but there's one other thing you can pass on to your location mixers/recordists and that would be an awareness of How bad is bad? Invite your location sound people into your studio and play examples of the problem and also solutions. (I'd love to get an invite to this kind of session.) A lot of location sound people don't really have any post experience, or if they do, like me , it was years ago. There's nothing like hearing it in the studio to create awareness of the problem. I would pay money for something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 I always try to to call the post team at some point to find out how they are doing with my work. Helps me a lot, and them as well. Invariably they'll invite me to stop by their studio and when I can, I will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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