VM Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe I'm supposed to have the wisys tone on -18db? It depends. In the receiver the tone may be at 0 or -18 dBfs. It should be the same on your mixer, and then you should modulate the audio level as you would modulate a mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 O.K. so the 0db on the 633 is equivalent to -18dBfs I think so I guess I should line it up with the -18db tone in the wisy receiver. The thing is to do that I have to have my gain up on full (+16) on the 633 (gain set using the PFL option) and the Wisy output has to be set to maximum (I think +12dB is the highest setting). So that means that the -18dBFS line level out of the Wisy needs 28db of gain to match the -18dBFS of the 633!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 shut down all the transmitters choose a group (but not 0 or 9*) scan receiver 1, accept the frequency it finds, transmit it by IRDA to the transmitter, put on the transmiter 1 scan receiver 2 in the same group, accept the frequency it finds, transmit it by IRDA to the transmitter, put on the transmiter 2 scan receiver 3 in the same group, accept the frequency it finds, transmit it by IRDA to the transmitter, put on the transmiter 3 scan receiver 4 in th esame group, accept the frequency it finds, transmit it by IRDA to the transmitter, put on the transmiter 4 and so on if you have more radio mics. Jsut note that while shooting if another frequency is coming (from another crew) it may work or... not. Jus t ask the sound guy from the other crew to coordinate his frequencies with yours. If not, youoneed to do again all those scans. *Group 0 and 9 are not free of intermod, they are center and intergap of DVBT channels. Center is to have a quick picture of the spectrum. Choose another locked channel. Intergap in case of a desperate situation without any free frequency ; you can try to work between the DVBT channels. Hi. The implication from Wisycom was that you somehow use a scan on group 00 to pick the group (step 2 in your method). They seem to think you can use 00 to find the most clear group. Does this make sense? What do you think? PS WIsy have said it is now group 00 for centre and 01 for intergap on their newer kit. 09 is now a regular group. Their manual is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 O.K. so the 0db on the 633 is equivalent to -18dBfs I think so I guess I should line it up with the -18db tone in the wisy receiver. The thing is to do that I have to have my gain up on full (+16) on the 633 (gain set using the PFL option) and the Wisy output has to be set to maximum (I think +12dB is the highest setting). So that means that the -18dBFS line level out of the Wisy needs 28db of gain to match the -18dBFS of the 633!!!I'm confused: does the Wisy have digital outs? If not, don't set it to -18, set it to 0 or, in fact, more if needed. Align that with 0dBu on the 633. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncg Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 O.K. so the 0db on the 633 is equivalent to -18dBfs I think so I guess I should line it up with the -18db tone in the wisy receiver. The thing is to do that I have to have my gain up on full (+16) on the 633 (gain set using the PFL option) and the Wisy output has to be set to maximum (I think +12dB is the highest setting). So that means that the -18dBFS line level out of the Wisy needs 28db of gain to match the -18dBFS of the 633!!! Hmm, actually its either a software bug or just bad communication on their part. What their manual refers to as "max output level" isn't as the name suggests a ceiling. It is output gain. The confusing part is that the tone (which should be a standard) is affected by the "max output level" unless I'm missing something. As they say, they best thing about standards is theres so many to choose from. Anyway, to reference correctly from the mcr42. Set the output gain to 8dbu, this should match the 633's scale (@unity) with both the -18dbu and 0db tone from the wisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm confused: does the Wisy have digital outs? If not, don't set it to -18, set it to 0 or, in fact, more if needed. Align that with 0dBu on the 633. Yes you can set the output to AES. Chrisyking, It seems to me that you are not familiar with radio frequencies. On their website, Shure, Lectrosonics or Sennheiser have some very good tutorials. The groups maybe different in different MCR42, you can even personalize as regards as the place you are working. In France you can choose the group with its name : groups are made for a specific city. Very usefull and easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Constantin. Yes the Wisy has digital outs, but I'm tring to put my 3rd and 4th channel of Wisy into inputs 5 and 6 of the 633 which are line level. There's no digital input on 5 and 6. Re levels. If I set my Wisy on line level at 0dB and my SDD input gain on 0dB, then put the tone on the Wisy at 0dB. I get perfect tone at 0dB on my 633 The problem is that if I then turn on the TX and get a nice level at about 3/4 of full scale on the TX meter, the output at the mic shows about -30dB on the 633 meters - hardly registers at all. The issue is that the level the TX produces is tiny and certainly doesn't equate to the 0dB tone when it is at a nice level........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Yes you can set the output to AES. Chrisyking, It seems to me that you are not familiar with radio frequencies. On their website, Shure, Lectrosonics or Sennheiser have some very good tutorials. The groups maybe different in different MCR42, you can even personalize as regards as the place you are working. In France you can choose the group with its name : groups are made for a specific city. Very usefull and easy. Hi Constantin. Yes I'm aware you can program the MCR preset frequencies. But I'm happy to use the Wisycom ones. I ordered the Mini PUK infra red device (80 quid!!) and Wisy say they will be releasing new software tomorrow so I'll be able to program my system as I like. When that happens I'll program in my own charts. Until then I'm using the pre-programmed ones. My question was that Wisycom seem to have a system for finding which one of their pre programmed groups is cleanest. I just need to work out how that works. I'm fairly sure that you do a scan on 00 and use the cleanest channel to pick the group from this frequency using their chart. I did this this morning on a job and it worked great. Just not sure if this is right though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Chris, I will try tomorrow( I just receive a 663). Which level do you set the transmitter, for which mic ? The max output level is 8 dBu, a little more than the Lectro SrB (5 dBu). It may be the 663 line input that has not enough gain...Let's try tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I Set the TX to -6db with a cos-11. This gives a nice level on the TX meter. If I then set the receiver to line level 0dB and put the tone on 0dB and set my input gain on 0dB on channel 5 (line level only) then tone is fine but when I put the mic on there is bugger all signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I mean no offense but I have my own "Dumb Wisycom question": why is chrisyking continuing to have seemingly so much difficulty setting up his Wisycom wireless with his 633? Isn't there anyone from Wisycom or Sound Devices or the dealer from which these items were purchased able to just give him the correct procedures? I for one am mystified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Maybe he hasn't asked any of then? Chris, what's the level showing on the receiver? Did you try using the AES outs, just for reference? Can you set the outs to mic level and connect it to the mic in on the 633? How does all that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Just heard back from Wisycom (they are quite busy) and their method is what I thought. You use group 00 to scan a clean frequency, then use this frequency to select a group to scan. Attached is a graphic to show what I mean. PS I did a corporate shoot yesterday with the mics and I have to say their sound is superb. Very very clean and very very noise free. Not a single radio glitch all day. securedownload.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Constantin. I'm running my 1st two channels into inputs 1 and 2 at mic level. These work fine. I can use AES on 1 and 2 if I want, but this uses some extra battery as it turns on the digital circuits (probably not much). My issue is with putting my second MCR42 channels 3 and 4 into the mixer. I want my boom in ch1 so I have to put them into the line levels ch 4 to 6 of the 633. You can get it to work fine by putting the input gain on full on the mixer and the output gain on full on the MCR42, but this seems to me like it might be boosting the noise floor. My question is why the mic signal should be 28dB lower than the 0dB tone the receiver sends out at line level. VM did you do your test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hi Chrissy, I understand your plight, I've had the same trouble getting Sennheiser EK3041 receivers to put out enough signal for the extra line level inputs on my Maxx and on 664.. I'd say this, run the MCR42 at the hottest level possible. If it's like Lectro, anything less than the maximum setting is just adding attenuation afterwards so there is no harm in setting it to maximum. Also, make sure you're fully modulating the transmitter, sounds like you are though. If I remember correctly I noticed a discrepancy between the audio metering on the transmitter and the meter on the receiver.. I asked Wisy about it but can't remember what they said or which one is more accurate.. If you've done all this and still can't get it working at a reasonable level without excessive noise you may be out of options. Of course, it would be smart to contact Sound Devices and see if there's anything you're missing. I'm sure SD intended and designed those inputs to work well with Lectrosonics receivers which also don't put out a "pro" line level voltage. It could be that the MCR42's hottest line output setting is just not enough for the 633... That is what I have found to be true with Sennheiser 3041. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Also, use your ears to see if it's really a problem or if you're faking yourself out somehow.. Send one channel of the MCR42 into one of the regular mic inputs setup how you like it and then the other one into the line-only input.. Trim everything so the meters for the two inputs on the 633 are identical and then A/B between the two listening to normal program at the same headphone level. If you don't notice a big difference in noise floor as you switch back and forth you don't have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Farrell Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I just did some testing with a 633 and MCR42 and was able to achieve proper levels running into the TA3 line inputs. I set the MCR42 analog output to +12dBu. The calibration tone of the MCR42 references full scale and the meters on the 633 are dBu so you'll want to output the -18 tone and bring that up to 0db on your 633's meters. In my test, this required 7db of gain. If you want to follow the American standard of 20db of headroom instead of 18, simply align the -18 tone to -2dBu on your meter, which requires 5db of gain from the 633's line input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hi. Thanks for that. Glad you found the same. As I said in my post it is possible to get a decent signal, it's just odd that one has to add effectively 19 dB to get the tone to line up. Have you then tried the TX into the mixer? It seems quite low to me. I've found that I have to have the gain of the mixer on full do get a decent level with the main dials in the middle almost another 16dB. The TX meter and the RX meter don't seem to correspond. I'm going to update my firmware when the release it tomorrow on the TX and see if the meters change. I'm just not sure why having an extra 20-25dB odd of cranking should be necessary. Fortunately Wisys are pretty much noise free, so all this cranking is probably O.K., but I don't know what the 633 does. I just wondered why the tone was set up so that even at +12dB you have to add another 7dB just to get a lineup. Anyway I'm grateful you've confirmed what I was getting. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Turn your Wisy MCR42 output level all the way up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Wisy confirmed their tone is peak deviation and is pre output gain stage, so if you crank the MCR42 output you also crank the tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 The output at the D/A is +12dBu (max), so any less and it's being attenuated. There's been a bit of testing around the fact that the output of wisy RX is 'a bit low' running into line ins and there could be a firmware fix on the way. I believe it's more to do with how the metering's set up, though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 VM did you do your test? YES. MCR42 and 663 works perfectly. TX set à cos11 preset. Normal voice (not very loud). MCR42 at his max analog output level Input 6 on 663 Trim at his max, Fader at 8 (there were still 8 dB of possible gain on the fader)? Peak were at 10 dBu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Heard back again from Wisy. They said what Patrick suggested which is the tone is a full scale tone, so should be set at +18 on the mixer to get a reasonable level floating around 0dB when the mics are on (or use -18db tone at 0db on mixer). In order to do this you need the +12db Gain on the receiver plus the etra 6db from the mixer gain. This is of course adding around +18dB to the noise floor. As Wisys noise floor is pretty much zero it's not a biggy. Next week when I get my kit into a nice quiet location i'll do some tests on noise floor. Patrick Farrell have you found that once you've lined up as you said, the TX levels are O.K.? Or are they low? I've found them a little low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyking Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 YES. MCR42 and 663 works perfectly. TX set à cos11 preset. Normal voice (not very loud). MCR42 at his max analog output level Input 6 on 663 Trim at his max, Fader at 8 (there were still 8 dB of possible gain on the fader)? Peak were at 10 dBu. Thanks VM. Think this confirms that the TX level is a bit low if you need your trim all the way up. Should only need to be at +6dB. This is what I've found also. Anyway, it works and can be used, which is good. I'll do some noise testing when I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncg Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Heard back again from Wisy. They said what Patrick suggested which is the tone is a full scale tone, so should be set at +18 on the mixer to get a reasonable level floating around 0dB when the mics are on (or use -18db tone at 0db on mixer). In order to do this you need the +12db Gain on the receiver plus the etra 6db from the mixer gain. This is of course adding around +18dB to the noise floor. As Wisys noise floor is pretty much zero it's not a biggy. Next week when I get my kit into a nice quiet location i'll do some tests on noise floor. Patrick Farrell have you found that once you've lined up as you said, the TX levels are O.K.? Or are they low? I've found them a little low. If +12dBu on the output of the wisy is full range and the only option is attenuation. The total noise added is the gain from the 633, so 6db. I'd imagine you would hear the self noise of the mic before anything the 633 produces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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