Ron Scelza Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Dear All, If you have a minute to think about a simple Workflow Survey questionaire, please post your ; comments, other forms, ideas, thoughts, etc. into the folder located in the file section.. Ideally limiting this form to less than a page using (KISS) and still containing enough information to avoid "Post-Mortum". Sincerely Ron Scelza http://ronscelzasoundrecording.com WORK IN PROGRESS: “WORKFLOW SURVEY FORM DRAFT†(up Loaded to the Files Section) ------------------------------- Question One of many questions.. If only one multi-track media (up to ten track) were delivered to you from production sound; What type of media (DVD-RAM, Fire wire Hard Drive), format (UDF, FAT32) Type of file (BWF-P BWF-M), platform (MAC, PC) and track count, would best serve to address the needs of all departments in this workflow? Media type ____________, Format _________, Type of file____________, Platform_____________, Track count___________. What department would you like the media delivered to? _______________, Contact___________, Tele___________. -------------------------------- Simple Workflow Check List. (In lieu of a workflow test or along with a workflow test). If you have a minute to think about this, please post your ; comments, other forms, ideas, thoughts, etc. into the folder located in the file section... "Workflow Survey Question Form" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Scelza Posted February 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 WORK IN PROGRESS: “WORKFLOW SURVEY FORM DRAFT†If only one multi-track media (up to ten track) were delivered to you from production sound; What type of media (DVD-RAM, Fire wire Hard Drive), format (UDF, FAT32) Type of file (BWF-P BWF-M), platform (MAC, PC) and track count, would best serve to address the needs of all departments in this workflow? Media type ____________, Format _________, Type of file____________, Platform_____________, Track count___________. What department would you like the media delivered to? _______________, Contact___________, Tele___________. If two multi-track media (each up to ten track) were delivered to you from production sound; MEDIA #1. What type of media (DVD-RAM, Fire wire Hard Drive), format (UDF, FAT32) Type of file (BWF-P BWF-M), platform (MAC, PC) and track count, would best serve to address the needs of all departments in this workflow? Media type ____________, Format _________, Type of file____________, Platform_____________, Track count___________. What department would you like the media delivered to? _______________, Contact___________, Tele___________. MEDIA # 2. What type of media (DVD-RAM, Fire wire Hard Drive), format (UDF, FAT32) Type of file (BWF-P BWF-M), platform (MAC, PC) and track count, would best serve to address the needs of all departments in this workflow? Media type ____________, Format _________, Type of file____________, Platform_____________, Track count___________. What department would you like the media delivered to? _______________, Contact___________, Tele___________. TELECINE: DV 40: Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. INDAW: Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. OTHER: __________________________. Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. PICTURE EDITOR AVID Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. FCP Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. OTHER: __________________________. Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. SOUND: PROTOOLS: Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. OTHER: __________________________. Software version: _________________. Type and format of expected media from production sound: ____________, __________________. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tourtelot Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Hi Ron- Nice idea. I am just beginning my struggles with what is needed to have a pain-free multi-track non-linear show. The hurdles are pretty daunting, and seeming to make for a lot of homework pre-production (that will be unpaid. Getting tech-scout days is hard enough<g>). My question about the survey is; wouldn't it be bettr for the production sound mixer to dictate more of the perameters for the job and have the various post facilities able to join in on the dance? I realize that it is maybe a bit soon to ask this of post, but why should we be ask to conform to a form factor that we don't have on hand and be expected to provide? DPs are not (usually anyway) told that they must shoot a partricular film stock because the first choice lab of production does well at processing that stock. If I as a soundman say, "I'm delivering on DVD-RAM" and the cheap-ass tranfer place that production has picked doesn't own a DV40, shouldn't production go find a transfer that does? Just asking. Since I have never had any actual real-world experience with all this yet, I am sort of terrified that there are so many traps to be avoided and new ones cropping up every day, that it seems pretty likely that one will bite you on a regular basis and that even good thoughtful prep will not always help (well, more help than no prep!). I have spoken recently of only finding out after a well-prepped playback, (including phone calls and emails both ways with the Post Super) which went awry, that post was running their Avids at 24FPS (something that I didn't even know was a possibility until too late) instead of the very common 29.97. Should the Post Super have told me that the Avids were 24FPS? Yes. Did she think to tell me, without my direct questioning? No. Her plate was full, full, full, and if she knew, or cared, she at least forgot. And that was only one variable in a simple scenareo. I am thinking that it's going to be a bit painful for me for a show or two; I am nervous. I will do my best to CY (my own) A, but there will be things, maybe important things, that get overlooked by someone, and the production sound team will be blamed. C'est la Vive. Standardization will be slow to happen and "mistakes will be made." I applaud your effort for trying to get everyone on the same page. Thanks for that. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Scelza Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Dear Doug, Nose bleeds and scuffed knees… Don’t let your kids grow up to be soundmen… The use of this form is to make everyone in the workflow aware that something is going to happen, and when it does, it might not be a perfect fit. Unless you have the luxury of working with the same team or you take this bull by the horn – “Sad Puppies†Solution - The form starts that dialogue with names and numbers and gives you an idea of what you’re up against… All that said, I whole heartedly agree, “why should this be on our plateâ€. The answer for now -- we get bashed! In most cases we are not there in post with the director and producer to fend off attacks... I am hopeful that armed with a good form as a precursor to or in lew of a test; we will have enough information to put this right. Thank you for additions and comments to this Workflow Survey Form... Sincerely Ron Scelza http://ronscelzasoundrecording.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 You were hosed by the post supe--no question. I know that a 24 fps edit is possible now with Avids and FCPs, but it is still pretty rare--I mean real actual 24 fps and not 23.976. Especially in a complex playback job they should have let you know--the post supe was too inexperienced to understand that you have to be included in all the discussions. On many jobs it will be the production sound people who end up setting the audio standard, since the post people may not even have been hired when production starts. There are also aspects of this that I think SHOULD be the purview of the production mixer--one has to respect the judgement of the person actually on the ground fighting the battle about how exactly the sound will be recorded. (See Jeff W.'s post about NLR track assignment, etc.) That said, it is up to production sound people to make choices that are not so esoteric or involving of non-standard practices that we are making extra work for the people downstream. With non-linear we are all groping towards new solutions, and everyone wants to protect their time and investment. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi Ron, After finishing the last few projects I've found thqat the necessity for me to have this conversation about how the files get delivered and doing various tests to test the work flow has made me work closer w/ post. This has been a good thing as there is less of a Us/Them mentality happening and we are now "in this together". There are still big hoops to jump through but the pre-production clarifications and conversations have been nothing but good and I now have been humbled and am willing to set the swwitches however the post super likes. I am absolved of how things "should have been done" and we do talk a lot and I like that rather than have our calls be of the confrontational variety. The past 2 projects were still using Mac OS9 so the DVD-Ram aspect didn't work for them which sucked as I had to burn DVD-R discs at various points of the day. Not so smooth but those were the limitations they had. One was HD for projection and one was for TV. Pull-up and sample rate convertion issues arose. If the conversations hadn't happened prior to shooting I would have not done all I could to help them and potentially been verbally thrashed in the post suites without being there to defend myself. Now it's us (me, the post-super, and those that follow them on the same team). Maybe I'm naive in this but I like working this way and I'm definitely learning how they do things, whether I agree w/ them or not is irrelevent, and I realize that I can't just impose my gear/style/file type on those that follow. Scott Harber Dear All, If you have a minute to think about a simple Workflow Survey questionaire, please post your ; comments, other forms, ideas, thoughts, etc. into the folder located in the file section.. Ideally limiting this form to less than a page using (KISS) and still containing enough information to avoid "Post-Mortum". Sincerely Ron Scelza http://ronscelzasoundrecording.com WORK IN PROGRESS: “WORKFLOW SURVEY FORM DRAFT†(up Loaded to the Files Section) ------------------------------- Question One of many questions.. If only one multi-track media (up to ten track) were delivered to you from production sound; What type of media (DVD-RAM, Fire wire Hard Drive), format (UDF, FAT32) Type of file (BWF-P BWF-M), platform (MAC, PC) and track count, would best serve to address the needs of all departments in this workflow? Media type ____________, Format _________, Type of file____________, Platform_____________, Track count___________. What department would you like the media delivered to? _______________, Contact___________, Tele___________. -------------------------------- Simple Workflow Check List. (In lieu of a workflow test or along with a workflow test). If you have a minute to think about this, please post your ; comments, other forms, ideas, thoughts, etc. into the folder located in the file section... "Workflow Survey Question Form" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tourtelot Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Did the company give you the time needed to do the extra work, were they part of the "us?" And di you get paid for the extra time that you spent conforming to the wishes of Post? Every phone call, every hour of 4x DVD-R burn? I don't mind doing all that, if it is really "us" and they respect me enough to know that my time is valuable and that, like the script super working alone in the AD trailer for an hour after work every night, they pay me for it. D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Hi Douglas, After I got a PD6 I found that having a test disc in every various format of tracking, sample rate, TC etc. helped immensely.I made a few copies of this disc and in it went for the post super to see what flavor they wanted. This didn't take much time or discussion and they appreciated my intents and concerns. It took about an hour to initially do this and worked for a couple of years. No great investment. Now I have a Cantar and there are many more options so I made a newer version of the test disc and they come and pick it up a week or so prior and the next day they can let me know what switches to flip. No big thing. It's worth knowing in a very positive way that they will have no-one to blame but themselves for thier choices. Email correspondence is also a great way to substantiate what decisions post makes. We don't sit down and hash out what works for them after a long debate. They decide what is best for them and they have to live with it. If I decide and it doesn't work things will get grim and I will feel behind the 8 ball for the rest of the show, particularly if something else doesn't work well. Spend an hour, make a test disc w/ every format you can think of and then your large task is done. This I consider part of my prep as it takes about 20 minutes total to put a disc out for a PA and the phone call or email to get translated into switch changing on the recorder. Scott Harber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Hi Douglas, After I got a PD6 I found that having a test disc in every various format of tracking, sample rate, TC etc. helped immensely.I made a few copies of this disc and in it went for the post super to see what flavor they wanted. This didn't take much time or discussion and they appreciated my intents and concerns. It took about an hour to initially do this and worked for a couple of years. No great investment. Now I have a Cantar and there are many more options so I made a newer version of the test disc and they come and pick it up a week or so prior and the next day they can let me know what switches to flip. No big thing. It's worth knowing in a very positive way that they will have no-one to blame but themselves for thier choices. Email correspondence is also a great way to substantiate what decisions post makes. We don't sit down and hash out what works for them after a long debate. They decide what is best for them and they have to live with it. If I decide and it doesn't work things will get grim and I will feel behind the 8 ball for the rest of the show, particularly if something else doesn't work well. Spend an hour, make a test disc w/ every format you can think of and then your large task is done. This I consider part of my prep as it takes about 20 minutes total to put a disc out for a PA and the phone call or email to get translated into switch changing on the recorder. Scott Harber Please tell us what is on your current (Cantar) disk. Which format etc is the most popular? thanks Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 The project I finished Sunday was a feature shot HD at 24/48.048 stamped at 48k at 29.97 NDF. They wanted to record in pull-up so as to avoid a sample rate conversion later on. I jammed lockits for the Varicam settings which I think were 29.97NDF as well. The test disc files I delivered all were at 24 Bit 29.97 NDF TC The test files were; 1-48K 2-47.572 3-48.048K 4-47.572K 5-48.048 stamped 48k 6-47.572K stamped 48k These were all BWF-M and I didn't need to send them a daily mix disc as I put an IFB on camera for a daily mix and there was no telecine. The DVD-R! (argh! post still on OS9) went in with a mix and iso tracks on the same disc. But I did deliver a test BWF-P mix track to test if they so wanted. I can't remember doing anything other than 30NDF or 29.97NDF on any non-linear recorders. There have been ideas and changes to pull-up and those sample rate issues usually at 48K but I always let the smart guys who have to deal w/ my recordings tell me what to do. There are differences in how to jam the various HD cams but those settings have been sorted out as well and I refer to pdfs of the settings to set lockits for the correct TC/sync to jam the cams for the project. Scott Harber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Does anyone know wether HD uses DF timecode ? Or is it all NDF ? I thought it was all NDF, but post is asking for DF timecode on an upcoming HD project (using Sony f900) and I think they may be mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Does anyone know wether HD uses DF timecode ? Or is it all NDF ? I thought it was all NDF, but post is asking for DF timecode on an upcoming HD project (using Sony f900) and I think they may be mistaken. 24 and 23.976 TC are always NDF. 29.97 can be either. What is the project framerate? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 it's 29.97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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