Tips & Tricks for concealing lavs in SUITS

[B Sharp]

Hi everyone, 

 

I have spent a bit of time searching the forum for an answer to this question, but I have not been able to find any related threads. If this topic has been covered, please direct me to the right page. Thanks. 

 

I am a bit new to production sound, but have been trying to refine my techniques and knowledge on as many topics as possible. 

I rarely seem to have trouble concealing lavs on talent, with the exception of wiring people in business suits. It seems that no matter where I hide the mic (in the tie, in the dress shirt, under the lappelle, in the collar), and with any mounting options (hush lavs, RM-11. vampire clips, moleskin, overcovers/ undercovers, topstick, snot tape), nothing seems to work. All I get is constant clothing friction noise. 

Hopefully some of you would be nice enough to offer some useful tips & tricks to guide a newbie like me in the right direction? Please be kind.  Thanks ahead of time.  

[Nick Ray Harris]

I have mic'd countless ties with a little joe's sticky stuff/butyl tape around the mic, stuck into the knot, usually where the valley forms in the fabric. I run the wire around the neck under the collar and tape secure at the back of the kneck, drop down to the pack on the belt. If its a thicker tie and gives me noise, I'll use a hush lav instead of sticky stuff. Works every time for me.

 

Sometimes starchy shirts, ties and jackets will be audibly loud and not rubbing on the mic, not much you can do about that.

[Philip Perkins]

Some ties, some shirts, some jackets and some stubbly necks are just noisy, that's all.  The mic is dumb--it hears everything, right?   Sometimes wardrobe people can help with the selection of the tie (has saved my ass many times), but some days……  It sounds like the OP has developed a vocabulary of mounting choices, that's all you can do!

 

In Silicon Valley, where I often work, the current executive look is an expensive suit+starched shirt with NO tie.  So now you are stuck with starchy, fashionably too-tight shirts, hairy chests etc.  I've started WISHING for ties again….

 

p

[B Sharp]

I have mic'd countless ties with a little joe's sticky stuff/butyl tape around the mic, stuck into the knot, usually where the valley forms in the fabric. I run the wire around the neck under the collar and tape secure at the back of the kneck, drop down to the pack on the belt. If its a thicker tie and gives me noise, I'll use a hush lav instead of sticky stuff. Works every time for me.

 

Sometimes starchy shirts, ties and jackets will be audibly loud and not rubbing on the mic, not much you can do about that.

Thank you very much for your helpful reply Nick,

 

I have tried to hide mics in tie knots. Sometimes it works, other times it is very noisy. I have a feeling that the noise often comes from the starchy shirts, and synthetic fibers  of the jacket. Sometimes I ask ahead time if all cotton fibers can be arranged, but sometimes even the cotton shirts are too starchy. 

[B Sharp]

Some ties, some shirts, some jackets and some stubbly necks are just noisy, that's all.  The mic is dumb--it hears everything, right?   Sometimes wardrobe people can help with the selection of the tie (has saved my ass many times), but some days……  It sounds like the OP has developed a vocabulary of mounting choices, that's all you can do!

 

In Silicon Valley, where I often work, the current executive look is an expensive suit+starched shirt with NO tie.  So now you are stuck with starchy, fashionably too-tight shirts, hairy chests etc.  I've started WISHING for ties again….

 

p

 

Thanks for the feedback Philip,

 

I guess it is just a matter of "you can't win 'em all". 

On another note, do you have any tips regarding your Silicon Valley style micing?

[smicycle]

I wind up dealing with a lot of the super starchy button up shirt/hairy chest/no undershirt thing all the time.  The fact of the matter is there's not much you can really do about it, especially when they add a blazer or something on top.  Oftentimes it's loud enough that the boom (in interviews I typically have a cmc6 up) picks it up clearly.  Like super clearly.  If that's the case I'll typically say something to the producer, director, whoever so there are no surprises when it comes to post.  That being said I have no idea why I'm even laving people in a fixed interview set up but the producers want it, so it get's used.  

 

I've been able to, like twice ever, use a mic clip and keep the lav out of the clothes, typically during a very tight shot.  Guess what? There's still tons of clothing noise.  I thought I was going insane/sucked at my job for a while there but I've take a lesson from Elsa and have learned to let it go. 

 

Still, I'll use an rm-11 sandwiched between this tape ( http://www.amazon.com/Nexcare-Absolute-Waterproof-1-Inch-5-Yard/dp/B001H54S82 (I love this stuff)) with a little topstick on the back of the rm-11 so it adheres to the lower layer of tape.  So the layering goes tape - rm11 - topstick - tape.  It's actually an excellent all around solution that is virtually silent if you place it correctly. I'll usually do the little loop, secured with those little rubber bands you had on your braces when you were a kid.  And if you didn't have braces when you were a little kid, whatever man. Maybe you have them now.  I'm brace-judgement free. It's just that those work great instead of tape.  I hate making little loops of tape. ANYWHO: after that I just tape down the cable between the space of the buttons directly below.  It is also worth mentioning, and this is important, that I rig it so that the microphone is 90 degrees off axis to the mouth, that way the mic isn't being bombarded from all 360 degrees by clothing noise.  That way it's only 180, maybe. After that I say a prayer/make an offering to the gods/do a dance/realize there isn't much I can do after that.  Also, and maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I've found that some shirts sound better in between the space directly below the first buttoned button (lets call that the high sternum), and sometimes they sound better in the space below that, let's call that the low sternum/cleavage area.  

 

That's all I got and I hope what I've got made sense, I'm way too lazy to go back and edit that.

[B Sharp]

I wind up dealing with a lot of the super starchy button up shirt/hairy chest/no undershirt thing all the time.  The fact of the matter is there's not much you can really do about it, especially when they add a blazer or something on top.  Oftentimes it's loud enough that the boom (in interviews I typically have a cmc6 up) picks it up clearly.  Like super clearly.  If that's the case I'll typically say something to the producer, director, whoever so there are no surprises when it comes to post.  That being said I have no idea why I'm even laving people in a fixed interview set up but the producers want it, so it get's used.  

 

I've been able to, like twice ever, use a mic clip and keep the lav out of the clothes, typically during a very tight shot.  Guess what? There's still tons of clothing noise.  I thought I was going insane/sucked at my job for a while there but I've take a lesson from Elsa and have learned to let it go. 

 

Still, I'll use an rm-11 sandwiched between this tape ( http://www.amazon.com/Nexcare-Absolute-Waterproof-1-Inch-5-Yard/dp/B001H54S82 (I love this stuff)) with a little topstick on the back of the rm-11 so it adheres to the lower layer of tape.  So the layering goes tape - rm11 - topstick - tape.  It's actually an excellent all around solution that is virtually silent if you place it correctly. I'll usually do the little loop, secured with those little rubber bands you had on your braces when you were a kid.  And if you didn't have braces when you were a little kid, whatever man. Maybe you have them now.  I'm brace-judgement free. It's just that those work great instead of tape.  I hate making little loops of tape. ANYWHO: after that I just tape down the cable between the space of the buttons directly below.  It is also worth mentioning, and this is important, that I rig it so that the microphone is 90 degrees off axis to the mouth, that way the mic isn't being bombarded from all 360 degrees by clothing noise.  That way it's only 180, maybe. After that I say a prayer/make an offering to the gods/do a dance/realize there isn't much I can do after that.  Also, and maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I've found that some shirts sound better in between the space directly below the first buttoned button (lets call that the high sternum), and sometimes they sound better in the space below that, let's call that the low sternum/cleavage area.  

 

That's all I got and I hope what I've got made sense, I'm way too lazy to go back and edit that.

This is all good stuff smicycle. Thanks very much for the reply. 

On another note, what is your general protocol for putting tape on chest hair? I always try to avoid putting tape directly over chest hair whenever possible. I work with a lot of athletes, and I feel that they might pound me into the ground if I hurt them while ripping out their chest hairs during the removal of their mic tape.

 

For hairy guys, I sometimes attach a overcover to the inside of the shirt, with the fur pointing inwards towards the chest hair. This acts as a buffer against the manly chest hair, and also requires no hairpulling. 

[smicycle]

If I absolutely have to apply tape to a hairy chest I'll actually use the waterproof tape, as it was designed for elderly patients with delicate skin who are getting IVs, bandages, and whatever else applied on a constant basis.  I really do try and avoid applying tape to hairy chests.  Unfortunately the only real way to solve it is to continue to experiment, forever.  

 

In short my answer is, to quote The Senator (but I don't mean to be an b-hole): "it depends."

 

Maybe we can just start forcing all these super casual and laid back super cool bro executives to start wearing ties again because that is way easier to deal with.

[B Sharp]

I should add, that currently, as I am a newbie, I don't have access to many mic options.

I currently own a single cos-11, and several m150s (and a few stock senny mics).

I try to get by with what I have, but in some situations, I feel like getting good lav placement is impossible.

The last time this issue came up, the frame was very wide(too wide to boom), with no alternative coverage. I tried to re-apply my lav about 10 times with no success. I informed the crew that I couldn't get good sound at all without a boomable shot, but they didn't seem to think that it was their problem.

I began to feel like I suck at my job.

[smicycle]

I've had the same kind of problems so far with B6s, cos-11s, 4061s, emws, tr-50s, pretty much everything.  It doesn't matter what mic you have but rather what you do with it.  Haven't used an m152 so I can't speak to their handling noise. 

 

Sometimes there's nothing you can do, really.  It's also important to realize that headphones make lav noise sound much, much worse than it really is.  Or rather how it will be reproduced on other systems.

[Marc Wielage]

I have had cases where I was pulling my hair out in frustration with suit/shirt/tie noise, only to eventually realize it was a fabric problem clearly audible just standing next to the actor. No mic can eliminate what you can hear by ear. (Leather jackets are the worst.)

 

In one case a couple of years ago, I had a case with a scene with 7 or 8 guys in suits talking around a round table. We got to the point where only one of them had any clothing noise problem. (Wide shot, boom useful only intermittently.) After the take, I jumped in and got wild lines from the one guy who was noisy, and all of those wound up in the final film. 

 

It's helpful if you can tell the talent to bring several shirts (or have the wardrobe people provide some alternates) to reduce or eliminate the problem. Too often it's either skin vs. fabric, fabric vs. fabric, body hair vs. fabric, or mic vs. fabric. The mic we can sometimes fix, but the rest are tough. In one case, I ran into a situation where a guy with a shaved chest created all kinds of noise issues. I corralled the makeup artist, explained the issue, and she got some moisturizer that completely eliminated the problem long enough for us to do the scene. 

[hiro nakamura]

If It's long hair girl, depends on the hairstyle of course, I stick the Lav on her forehead. haha. With medical tape.

[Frankie Richards]

I always mic the tie knot like Nick stated, but I have moleskin layered over the hush lav my Cos-11 is encased in. I also make sure the mic element is poking completely outside of the hush lav. Works most of the time without fail.

LMC Sound use to carry a chest strap specifically for the Cos-11 that works well for hairy chests. Shipped in 3 sizes, but I'm not seeing it on their website just now.

[jason porter]

Rode Pin Mic with the appropriate "pin" camouflage can be a possibility.

[Philip Perkins]

I never had any luck "selling" the pin mic as a visible "brooch" sort of thing, it worked ok as a fake button, but took too long to rig usually and I wasn't crazy about the sound of the mic element they used.  That said I keep one around for the oddball desperate hail Mary situations.  

 

My other suggestion re a really noisy set of clothes is to think outside the box a little--ie try to get the mic away from where the noise mostly is.  I've gotten away with putting mics peeking around the "points" of sport/suit coat collars or threaded up through the lining of a suit coat and into the breast pocket, and so on, to get away from noisy shirts and ties, esp bow ties.  Desperation is the mother etc

 

philp

[pkautzsch]

I've found with starched shirts, sometimes the only place is inside the collar, right where it folds down.

Doesn't sound exactly great, but at least doesn't have much acoustic rustle.

I've used Sankens in there, but would also use a B-6, taped down with white medical tape (assuming a white shirt).

Cable goes to the back of the neck, securely taped down, and then down the back on the outside - as the suit's jacket is over it.

 

Another good way to wire shirts is near a buttonhole, Sticky Stuff works well since it's a bit thicker and elastic and attenuates rustle.

I've taped down chest hair a few times, using soft medical tape is key. It doesn't need to hold a mic or something, it just needs to stay there.

[osa]

Hair or glasses are also other possibilities, and also discussed here once before - sometimes a source of noise is stubble at the collar and the possible solution being assistance from makeup dept with lotion iirc

-Ken

[r.paterson]

The best challenge is when they are overweight with a undersize tight shirt and tie and outside walking talking in a strong wind , in that situ I find only place is in shirt placket just under knot of tie then double side tieSri shirt so it is lifted over the area of the Mic placement so the tie isn't moving on the shirt, jacket movement is hit or miss..richard

[jason porter]

I carry a couple new white t-shirts in my kit. They can be a lifesaver when you need to add a layer in between a hairy chest and a starched shirt.

[Rachel Cameron]

I ran into a situation where a guy with a shaved chest created all kinds of noise issues. 

​I had one worse than that. Two cameras with 'no plan'. Round table discussion. Skinny guy exec, with four day chest hair stubble, wearing a tightly fitting, over-starched shirt..who drank too much expresso and would NOT hold still for a second. 

I was horrified. It sounded like a wire brush on a  2 x 4.

I was lucky to get the boom in there after a little playback and a serious discussion with the powers that be.

[Simon Hayes]

So many of these situations sound to me like they are on documentaries/corporate videos.

I always put the Lavs on the outside in these instances after discussions regarding sound quality.

[Chris Woodcock]

So many of these situations sound to me like they are on documentaries/corporate videos.

I always put the Lavs on the outside in these instances after discussions regarding sound quality.

I think we all know your history with putting lavs outside :-P

[Simon Hayes]

Ha!

 

The one trick we use for ties that people may find useful is soaking them in water and fabric conditioner.Works wonders even on knitted silk.

[James Arnold]

Ha!

 

The one trick we use for ties that people may find useful is soaking them in water and fabric conditioner.Works wonders even on knitted silk.

​I'm surprised the water doesn't mark the silk. Good to know.

[James Arnold]

I never had any luck "selling" the pin mic as a visible "brooch" sort of thing, it worked ok as a fake button, but took too long to rig usually and I wasn't crazy about the sound of the mic element they used.  That said I keep one around for the oddball desperate hail Mary situations.  

 

My other suggestion re a really noisy set of clothes is to think outside the box a little--ie try to get the mic away from where the noise mostly is.  I've gotten away with putting mics peeking around the "points" of sport/suit coat collars or threaded up through the lining of a suit coat and into the breast pocket, and so on, to get away from noisy shirts and ties, esp bow ties.  Desperation is the mother etc

 

philp

​I have a couple of the original pin mics, the precursor to the Rode effort. It doesn't sound great but is far more versatile with it's flat surface and covers that badges and so forth can be stuck to. It's a shame that Ricsonix quickly stopped manufacturing soon after releasing the 'button mic' - that could have been a really useful tool for emergencies.