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Having watched the idea of shaming develop am ready to respond.

 

It's a strategy.

 

There's a strategy that says beating your children will teach them. It appears to work. It persists generation to generation.

 

Shaming is a "thing" now, magnified by every bit of media we consume, and often appears standing right beside humiliation. 

 

I associate both shaming and humiliation with sadism.

 

As a recovering masochist, am sensitive to such things.

 

The strategies you apply are choices.

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I just want to say that all of this (as unstructured as it might be) is really good stuff. Like I said, the more information we have about ourselves, the better. And especially thanks, Jan, for humoring me in my wish for examples. Of course it is situational, but already we've seen quite a few generally accepted principles. It's good to see a few approaches as well.

 

Also, I agree John. I don't think "educating" is the right word. And it's becoming clearer that it might not be possible to exert social pressure without it being considered "shaming". Here's a sample scenario that I might imagine (the low ball offer is purposefully extreme):

UPM: Hi James. A friend of yours gave me you number. We have an exciting project coming up, and we're looking for a sound package. We hope you're interested. Let me tell you a little about the project. We have an all-star ensemble cast including Michael Douglas and Scarlet Johansson. And we'll be shooting on the new Red Dragon. We appreciate that sound is a very important part of the process, and there will be some sound intensive scenes, including a 4-page 9 character steadicam shot set in a ballroom with a dance number. So we'll need a lot of radios. Also, I was told to ask you if you had a "Thumper"? Anyway, there will be quite a few actor's agents there too so we're expecting around 20 Comteks on average, maybe more if it's bring-your-daughter-to-work day. Unfortunately we can't pay you, but we can give you a $49 kit rental and a $1 stipend for lunch each day. We will be providing a boom operator, a very smart young man who will do anything to meet Scarlet Johansson. Also, full disclosure, catered lunch will cost a dollar each day. I hope you're as excited about the project as we are!

Let's get the mean responses out of the way
Mean Response #1 - No/Nope/Nooooooooooooooooo/You're an idiot
Mean Response #2 - You've got to be kidding. No one with any talent or self respect would ever remotely consider this offer. Whoever you do get will likely be terrible and you will have problems through all of production and post production.

Mean Response #3 - This is such a terrible offer that I'm going straight to the forums with this and we'll all get a good laugh, unless of course one of the younger members decides to take it. Then we will flame his ass into oblivion.

 

And polite responses

Polite Response #1 - I'm sorry but that rate is too low for what I can bring to the table. I wish you all the best
Polite Response #2 - I'm afraid I don't believe anyone with the experience you need will be willing to work for that rate. If you raised it to at least $200 and agreed to bumps for complex days, I could help you find someone.

Alternative response - I'm sorry, but I do not believe that is a reasonable rate for this job. I'm concerned that it demonstrates a lack of respect for the position in general, and I'm concerned that may hinder my ability to do quality work. I should also warn you that the more you make this offer, the more likely it will be posted online and used as an example of what to avoid. I would highly recommend that future offers take into better consideration the costs associated with being a sound mixer so that we can all be enabled to do our jobs to professional standards. I wish you luck in your production. Sincerely, James

I think as a general rule, it's better not to give in to our emotions. It should be said that "shaming" is likely not done because it's practical, but because we're angry. At the same time, it is human nature. Just multiple studies have suggested that the more disciplined we are, the better off we are in life (god, I'm such an f-ing nerd)

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Very insightful NewEndian,

 

I think that the shaming comes out of frustration.  Since the producer, doesn't really care.. he'll just move on till someone takes that job.. Not sure the message were actually sending to that producer, as far as, 'the education' is concerned.  Seams like the only education that those producers are receiving is one where he weeds out the dicks first.

 

I'd like to point out a huge Elephant in the room.  The very Union to which most of you belong too, uses 'Shaming' as a tactic too..  In fact, they make no bones about it either.   Huge signs (promptly saying "Shame on XXX") displaying on street corners, walking the picket on the public corner holding signs up and down, yelling out on sets, and shaming to bring the media around, thus drawing attention.  Hell, the entire Campaign against a production is one big smear!!

 

3 people have written me with emails, chastising me about 'explaining' shaming.  All 3 of those people are union members, which makes me laugh.  At least I have enough balls to openly explain 'shaming' and admit it's a tactic... those others, hands are as dirty as mine..

 

p.s. Awesome that we can discus this though..  I personally think this is a cancer, that will keep getting worse until it effects everyone, at every level..  Something we should discus, so a plan can be hatched... or not.

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When I encounter this type of situation it usually comes in one of two forms:

 

First is the seriously uneducated, you can hear it in their voice person who knows they need sound but doesn't know the in's and outs of what we do... These people are pretty easy to spot. They are mousey and don't speak the language, either in terms of rate or in terms of production. I do what I can to help them understand what it is they want and either talk rates or suggest a student type to fill their needs.

 

Second is the penny pinching Production Manager or Line Producer looking for a warm body at the very lowest cost. These guys understand gear, lingo and most of all rates because they are ultimately the ones driving the rates down... While I do my best to be professional, I am very upfront and firm in what I expect for rates etc. Most of the time they are short conversations because I'm not going to kill myself and my gear for beer money, and I certainly would not refer any of my friends or fellow mixers to these people. They can do their own homework. 

 

The biggest thing I've come to realize is recognizing what kind of person is on the other end of the phone and dealing with them accordingly.  Its pointless to argue rates with low balling productions. They know full well what the rates SHOULD be. They don't care what I have to say...They don't want to be educated. They want a warm body. If its not me its the next guy on the list.

 

I'm on the fence about publicly "shaming" productions for low balling. There is always someone that will fill that role...Typically if I get a sketchy call I quietly warn the people local to me to be on the look out. As opposed to making it a big deal.

 

Now, productions that do not pay? Those people deserve to be tarred and feathered! :D

 

Another thing to consider is that maybe the person shaming the awful production company did it in a professional manner, but just needs to vent and commiserate with others who share that frustration. Maybe some more tact could be used when venting...like not naming the production co...So then it remains a venting session rather than a torches and pitchforks session..

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At the rates we are paying, it's somewhat difficult to determine who is really good and who isn't - since most applicants have hardly any credentials to their name - so we are really grateful for any recommendations from trusted sources such as yourself. Sound is too important to roll the dice on!

They pretty much just gave themselves their own answer. That's like saying "I can't afford a health insurance plan that covers all my needs, but my health is too important to roll the dice on". Well, you either pay more to get guaranteed coverage, or pay less and hope that nothing bad happens.

At least this gig is paying something, though. I'm currently looking at gigs on Craigslist that are low pressure (as I am learning and don't know the best ways to do everything yet and will make mistakes I wouldn't have made if I was more experienced), but I'm seeing NO PAY gigs that want you to have your own professional gear and have a really strong portfolio. What the heck?

The fact that the people applying to this gig have no credentials is just something they have to deal with because of the rates they're paying. They're lucky to have people applying at all.

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We accept hairs of all colors, whether real or remembered.

No Gingers need apply.

 

I remember this one as a kid thinking: so they just accept all gingers; everyone else has to apply?

Kind of like "In Case Of Fire, Use Stairs": so we should just use the stairs all the time; just in case there's a fire?

(No passiveness intended here. It just reminded me of something funny)

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If anyone has ever read or listened to Penn Jillette, he's big on what Thomas Jefferson called the "Marketplace of Ideas": that the biggest value of free speech is the unhindered generation of ideas; the marketplace being every individual's choice to propagate or counterpoint those ideas until the best ideas become dominant.

That all sounds very innocuous, but Penn, whilst being an atheist, never faults evangelicals for trying to propagate their religion so long as it is in the name of propagating the best ideas. Despite it being a fierce and ongoing debate which causes much trouble, he would rather see others be able to express their own ideas, than have his be the only ideas.

 

Taking it even further, there is inherent value to the push back that we sometimes have to display when we see or experience something we don't appreciate. I'll use the example of young sibling cats. We're told to let them fight, because they need to teach each other what is ok and what is not. The same thing happens with kids at school, though sometimes parents have to step in when violence or intimidation occur.

So my point in all this, though I think I might just be rephrasing what we've all been saying, is that it is ok to push back, but there are respectful ways to do so. Sometimes just walking away is message enough. Sometimes a little specificity is part of it. "Shaming", which context seems to describe as "push back plus disrespect", is not necessary. But the "Marketplace of Ideas" will help us all move forward together.

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So my point in all this, though I think I might just be rephrasing what we've all been saying, is that it is ok to push back, but there are respectful ways to do so. Sometimes just walking away is message enough. Sometimes a little specificity is part of it. 

 

That's basically what I do. I had a producer a year or so ago tell me he had a union shoot, then tried to convince me they were on a "Tier 0." I told him I had the IA low-budget contract in front of me and there was no Tier 0. Anything below a $1M budget has a minimum for sound mixers, and it wasn't anywhere as low as he believed it to be. I also explained (patiently) that even the equipment necessary for his job couldn't be rented for his quoted amount.

 

I don't know where these so-called producers out there pull these rates from, but they're clearly not looking at the rate books or the real-world rental prices out there. There's a point where low-budget gets insulting, and that's where I hold my cool and say, "sorry -- for that rate, you get a kid with a bag and a boom. And very little experience, which will wind up costing you money in the end." Some agree, some argue, some shrug it off, but I think on some level they all know it.

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I understand that budgets can be all over the place. In my market, I can work half day ENG shoots or I can work feature films. What I would like to know is where in the world do the $100/day rates come from? It's like going into a Starbucks and asking for a cup of coffee and expecting to pay a nickel. There isn't ANYWHERE where a cup of coffee is a nickel. So why would anyone think that $100 a day for labor and a $25K kit is reasonable?

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So why would anyone think that $100 a day for labor and a $25K kit is reasonable?

 

I don't even like the ones for $300/day. It's ridiculous, especially when you're looking at multiple wires and isos. Double that rate, and you're starting to get into negotiable territory, depending on the requirements of that specific shoot.

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I understand that budgets can be all over the place. In my market, I can work half day ENG shoots or I can work feature films. What I would like to know is where in the world do the $100/day rates come from? It's like going into a Starbucks and asking for a cup of coffee and expecting to pay a nickel. There isn't ANYWHERE where a cup of coffee is a nickel. So why would anyone think that $100 a day for labor and a $25K kit is reasonable?

 

So glad you asked since this is something I've been noodling for a while.

 

Liken film making to architecture. The architect lives within the constraints of the people who will use and finance his/her design made manifest.

 

Architects are hired by reputation and relationship.

 

There is a budget, usually pretty big even to build a garage.

 

Lots of realistic artsy types want to be architects.

 

It's hard to get there from anywhere.

 

The architects I know started doing grunt work for other architects.

 

Making a building requires collaboration among many crafts and one creative eye in the sky to make sure it flows.

 

To a large extent, it is creation by committee. 

 

It's more business than art with a side of politics.

 

Now substitute the name of any position in our industry for 'architect' and 'motion picture' for building.

 

The experience-related Catch 22 trips up a lot of people. Not many would give a student architect or film maker $1M or $10M to burn.

 

At eight years old, you had your family computer and web cam. At 16, your parents house, their video camera, and some school chums who couldn't care less about making movies. Film school gear and other film student students. At 23, a rented RED and all the money you saved two years working summers, but at this point it's a little harder to get staffed.

 

For some, making motion pictures is what they must do. By any means necessary, a compulsion that must be obeyed. The process requires a lot of costly, skilled help. Its a dilemma some solve in nefarious ways. Others solve it by planting relationship seeds and growing them slowly but surely toward bounteous staffing harvests. There are a few low budget specialist producers and graduating PA's for whom I will work if I've not got anything going on because I adore them and even in that category, they are smart, respectful and treat the crew well and usually choose important scripts that Hollywood would never make. When colleagues want to step up from crew to produce/direct, I gladly help them staff their project. You GO!

 

The stakes feel kinda high.

 

Learn how to spot the difference between nefarious and wonderful sooner, for those with whom you work will recommend you to their friends. You may safely assume the nefarious have nefarious friends.

 

Slight shifting of gears here: Having a trainee on set costs me a lot. My work load triples. I have to teach 'em what to do while doing it myself. Watch them do it. Check their work. Deal with the inevitable screw-ups. I do it so there will hopefully be an easier future for me and for our craft; karma bank deposits for all the teaching given me.

 

Sometimes wonder in career frustration moments if trainees shouldn't pay me as alternative to college or grad school. 

 

Feel like the pace at which this industry grows has diminished the teaching ROI. 

 

All the best learning costs, if only in opportunity costs.

 

I choose the people I let into my intimate circle of "Know" with care.

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I don't think that Jan, Jeff, Crew, Mr. Sharman, Mr. FewMoreYears. Mr Lightstone, Mr Palmer, Mr Toline and the rest of you very very experienced mixers really should feel obliged or even that it's a good idea to play "sound yenta" to newbie/young/lowbudget-at-any-age producers.  As I've gotten older I've become acutely aware that for me it is a good idea to keep the conversation strictly professional, and not to assume a "teacher" role unless really asked to.  Everyone wants things in life they can't afford.  I want a 2000 sq foot music studio with a grand piano and lots of other toys, they want their little "portfolio movie" to be mixed by a Hollywood (or other Big Movie Town) veteran.  They can't afford it if you (the mixer) aren't moved to be an "investor", of your unpaid time and gear.  Unlike a Mercedes or Tesla dealer, we can't offer financing for our time (I actually have done some financing on post work, and we used to have "deferred payment" deals on features that actually paid out eventually), so there it is.  I like having some names I can give them, newb soundies or mixers who are new in town, it makes me feel better about saying no.  But I feel like me trying to tell them why they need to pay their soundie more seems a little condescending, and confirming of what many of THEM (young filmmakers) think about people like US (experienced, probably older, mixers).   Some lessons are best learned the practical (painful) way in order to be remembered.

 

philp

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There is some very newbie "everyone makes $100/day, crew and actors" concept out there. 1) they may legitimately not realize the ticket price of our package. 2) there are a lot of select people getting all back end.

I recently read an article in an airplane seat pocket magazine extolling this "brilliant" business model. They talked to some producer(s) that use this model repeatedly for their films. I'm not sure what crew members would do this more than once, at least the ones getting no backend payouts. It seemed more like a ruse to pretend everyone really was only going to make $100/day. Wish I could remember where I read it. Nothing new to us, but very bold to see it bragged about in print.

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There is some very newbie "everyone makes $100/day, crew and actors" concept out there. 1) they may legitimately not realize the ticket price of our package. 2) there are a lot of select people getting all back end.

I recently read an article in an airplane seat pocket magazine extolling this "brilliant" business model. They talked to some producer(s) that use this model repeatedly for their films. I'm not sure what crew members would do this more than once, at least the ones getting no backend payouts. It seemed more like a ruse to pretend everyone really was only going to make $100/day. Wish I could remember where I read it. Nothing new to us, but very bold to see it bragged about in print.

I've seen articles like this for as long as I've been in the biz.  It's an attractive and enduring myth that a wannabe producer-director can get a bunch of newbs to act and deliver like an experienced crew, many many people WANT it to be true so they continue to believe it.  Often filmmakers like Robt Rodriguez or David Lynch in their salad days are pointed to, but the people trying to crew up films usually aren't either as talented or as technically hip as people like that--people who actually do understand everyone's job, have and can do it and thus have a good idea what they can expect.  And after being burned many years ago, I've become highly sensitized to requests from groups of people who see the making of a film as a kind of field trip or social occasion.   They (and I) need them to find someone who fits into their scene a whole lot better than I would.

 

philp

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And after being burned many years ago, I've become highly sensitized to requests from groups of people who see the making of a film as a kind of field trip or social occasion.  

 

 

Best quote to date Phillp.  "We're just going to have a really great time!"   I tell people, sure, great stories about the set are one thing.. But the bottom line is.. 'it's ALL about the end product"  I've never heard a movie critic say, "The movie was bad.. but I heard the crew had a good time making it!!"

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